Class B bust my fault or the controllers ?

Today I flew into KBFI (Boeing field) which is class D and has
extentions that underlie the Class B that require close attention to
altitudes and headings so as to stay clear. Today the winds were
favoring 31L (and 31R) and I came in from the west on the Vashon
approach--the most common approach from the west.

I was on a left downwind for 31L and the tower told me I was number
three following an Arrow on about a 2 mile straight in final (Valley
approach?). I acknowledged the traffic, and was waiting for it to come
up on my 9 o'clock before turning base so as to allow enough spacing.

The controller suddenly told me that I was too far south and said
either that I had busted into surface B or was about to. (I never did
clearly hear which).
Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile
or less--you end up in class B surface.

My questions:

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

Any thoughts would be appreciated...

Antonio

Antoñio wrote:

Today I flew into KBFI (Boeing field) which is class D and has
extentions that underlie the Class B that require close attention to
altitudes and headings so as to stay clear. Today the winds were
favoring 31L (and 31R) and I came in from the west on the Vashon
approach--the most common approach from the west.

I was on a left downwind for 31L and the tower told me I was number
three following an Arrow on about a 2 mile straight in final (Valley
approach?). I acknowledged the traffic, and was waiting for it to come
up on my 9 o'clock before turning base so as to allow enough spacing.

The controller suddenly told me that I was too far south and said
either that I had busted into surface B or was about to. (I never did
clearly hear which).
Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile
or less--you end up in class B surface.

My questions:

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

Any thoughts would be appreciated...

Antonio

You are always responsible for remaining clear of Class B airspace unless
you receive a clearance to enter Class B airspace. You should be well
aware of the boundaries at a secondary airport like BFI.

"Antoñio" wrote in message
oups.com...
Today I flew into KBFI (Boeing field) which is class D and has
extentions that underlie the Class B that require close attention to
altitudes and headings so as to stay clear. Today the winds were
favoring 31L (and 31R) and I came in from the west on the Vashon
approach--the most common approach from the west.

I was on a left downwind for 31L and the tower told me I was number
three following an Arrow on about a 2 mile straight in final (Valley
approach?). I acknowledged the traffic, and was waiting for it to come
up on my 9 o'clock before turning base so as to allow enough spacing.

The controller suddenly told me that I was too far south and said
either that I had busted into surface B or was about to. (I never did
clearly hear which).
Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile
or less--you end up in class B surface.

My questions:

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?
Any thoughts would be appreciated...


1. Ask the controller to call my base turn.
2. Invest in a Garmin 196 at a minimum
3. File IFR when going into KBFI
4. Not get that close (and boxed in) to class B without permission to enter.
My thoughts in order of preference

Howard

Antonio

Uh, If you are on an IFR flight plan, you don't need to hear "cleared
for Class B". At least that is always the way it has worked for me.

On 27 May 2005 23:39:18 -0700, Antoñio wrote:

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

Bottom line, it is your fault.

If a controller gives you instructions that cause a problem, then you need
to speak up and say "cannot comply without clearance into Bravo. See
4-4-13 B at http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0404.html Look at the
note where it says:

....the pilot should promptly notify the controller if visual contact with
the other aircraft is lost or cannot be maintained or if the pilot cannot
accept the responsibility for the separation for any reason.

Note the second half of the paragraph, which would be fitting your
situation.

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

See above reference for ATC responsibilities..

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

I would have requested clearance into Bravo if he had me heading in that
direction. I would have slowed my speed down significantly to slow my
approach into Bravo.

Hope this helps!

Allen

"Doug" wrote in message
oups.com...
Uh, If you are on an IFR flight plan, you don't need to hear "cleared
for Class B". At least that is always the way it has worked for me.

You always need a clearance to be in Class B. But if your IFR clearance
takes you through Class B, then that *is* a clearance to be in Class B, even
if the words "Class B" are not mentioned in the clearance.

--Gary

Doug wrote:

Uh, If you are on an IFR flight plan, you don't need to hear "cleared
for Class B". At least that is always the way it has worked for me.

That's correct. But, it doesn't seem this guy was on an IFR flight
plan. I don't find any "Vashon Approach" in my IFR charts for KBFI.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
"Antoñio" wrote:
1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in?

You are.

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you?

When the controller tells you to do something that would cause you to bust
the Class Bravo, tell him, "Unable without a class bravo clearance".

That's not always feasible. At the time you accept the instruction, you may
have no way of knowing that your traffic won't materialize until you're in
Class B. Or the instruction might just be "Continue downwind, I'll call your
base".

If the frequency is then too crowded for you to alert the controller to your
position as you approach Class B, you either have to disobey the
instruction, or else bust the Class B. I'd do the former, but I don't see
any guidance in the FARs or the AIM that clarifies whether that's the right
choice.

--Gary

I agree with the other posters the responsibility is yours, not the tower
controllers. If an enforcement action was contemplated, it would work in
your favor, but not exonerate you.

One thing for certain, file an ASRS! That can stop an enforcement action.
See http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov


"Antoñio" wrote in message
oups.com...
Today I flew into KBFI (Boeing field) which is class D and has
extentions that underlie the Class B that require close attention to
altitudes and headings so as to stay clear. Today the winds were
favoring 31L (and 31R) and I came in from the west on the Vashon
approach--the most common approach from the west.

I was on a left downwind for 31L and the tower told me I was number
three following an Arrow on about a 2 mile straight in final (Valley
approach?). I acknowledged the traffic, and was waiting for it to come
up on my 9 o'clock before turning base so as to allow enough spacing.

The controller suddenly told me that I was too far south and said
either that I had busted into surface B or was about to. (I never did
clearly hear which).
Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile
or less--you end up in class B surface.

My questions:

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

Any thoughts would be appreciated...

Antonio

"Antoñio" wrote in message
oups.com...

Today I flew into KBFI (Boeing field) which is class D and has
extentions that underlie the Class B that require close attention to
altitudes and headings so as to stay clear. Today the winds were
favoring 31L (and 31R) and I came in from the west on the Vashon
approach--the most common approach from the west.

I was on a left downwind for 31L and the tower told me I was number
three following an Arrow on about a 2 mile straight in final (Valley
approach?). I acknowledged the traffic, and was waiting for it to come
up on my 9 o'clock before turning base so as to allow enough spacing.

The controller suddenly told me that I was too far south and said
either that I had busted into surface B or was about to. (I never did
clearly hear which).
Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile
or less--you end up in class B surface.

My questions:

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

Any thoughts would be appreciated...



Where were you on the downwind when the Arrow was on a two mile final? I
make the RWY 31L threshold to be 0.93 miles from the Class B boundary.
Unless you were pretty much abeam the threshold or further south when the
instruction was issued there should have been plenty of room to follow and
avoid the Class B airspace.

You're responsible for any bust. If following the instruction meant
entering the Class B airspace I'd respond to it with "verify I'm cleared
into Class B airspace." If the controller replies with "Negative" I'd
inform
him I was turning to avoid Class B airspace. Pilots are required to abide
by the FARs regardless of any ATC instruction.