NTSB final report on Hendrick crash

Maule Driver wrote:
: It's a KLN909b GPS I guess. Granted that the crew knew how to use it
: and granted that the dating of the database had no impact, the cause
: seems to be a loss of situational awareness due in some part to misuse
: of the GPS.

: It seems that they 'half used' the GPS for this non-GPS approach and
: then 'over relied' on the GPS over use of the radio aids. That is, they
: setup the GPS to lead them to the FAF but neglected to press the hold
: button before reaching the IAF for the hold. No problem with that as
: long as you realize what you are doing and continue to use the DME, ADF,
: and RMI for identification of the various fixes.

: I'll bet this crew could have turned off the GPS and nailed this
: approach 1,000 times in a row without incident, or conversersely used
: the GPS exclusively with the Loc and NDB out of service and done the same.

Unless this an updated version of the NTSB report, it's been out for a few
months now. IIRC they conclude two problems:

- Using the GPS for DME info and having it auto-sequence without their knowledge.
Exiting the hold at a significantly higher altitude than the entry altitude didn't
help either.
- Incorrect missed approach procedure. I think they concluded that had they executed
the missed as published, the turn would have maintained terrain clearance.

Very unfortunate and personally disturbing to me. I flew the LOC/DME into my
home airport of BCB the *previous day* in identical weather... only about 40 miles to
the north of the accident. I broke out in about 500' and 1 mile.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

"Maule Driver" wrote:

Using the Garmin on such an approach to function in place of the ADF and
DME, I would have programmed it similarly. However, flying the approach
would require switching it from 'auto-sequence' to 'hold' just before
passing BALES for the holding pattern turn. That would keep BALES as the
next waypoint. Once inbound to BALES, I would have switched it to
auto=sequence.

Does the KLN 90B function similarly? That is, is there a Hold switch?

Yes. It has an OBS mode.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Maule Driver wrote:


Jim Macklin wrote:

He had a GPS, but as a high time commuter pilot in a BE1900, he didn't
know how to use it. Their GPS was not current for IFR, but they were
using it. When they crossed the LOM, the GPS autocycled to the MAP
WPT and the crew just did a turn about a point and flew at the IAP
altitude past the airport and died.

I'm not familiar with the KLN 90B but fly a Garmin 300XL which I believe
is of similar vintage and function. In addition, my single CDI is wired
so that it would auto-connect to the NAV radio when tuned to a LOC signal.

Using the Garmin on such an approach to function in place of the ADF and
DME, I would have programmed it similarly. However, flying the
approach would require switching it from 'auto-sequence' to 'hold' just
before passing BALES for the holding pattern turn. That would keep
BALES as the next waypoint. Once inbound to BALES, I would have
switched it to auto=sequence.

Does the KLN 90B function similarly? That is, is there a Hold switch?

I can't speak for a KLN 90B, but we have an 89B in our club Arrow. It
doesn't have a hold switch, but if I understand your description above
of the Garmin hold function, it sounds like the OBS function on the
King. You must put the unit in OBS mode prior to making a course
reversal for a procedure turn. You then switch back to auto sequence
mode when approaching the FAF.

I haven't yet flown enough with the GPS to feel comfortable using it for
an approach in actual. I'm not flying enough these days to stay
proficient with it and I find that if I don't fly it at least once a
month, I forget the subtleties.

I think a moving map GPS would be the cat's meow, but the 89B style are
terrible, in my opinion. I can go a year between flying an ILS or VOR
approach and still do a credible approach the first time. I just had an
ICC last Friday and I hadn't flown an approach in more than a year. I
was a little rough on the first VOR approach, but the second one was
spot on as were the two ILS I then flew.

The GPS is just not intuitive at all to use and takes way too much
set-up, cross-checking and effort in my opinion. It is amazing how
complicated they made these devices given how simple a typical ILS or
VOR approach is.


Matt

On 11/13/06 14:24, Matt Whiting wrote:
Maule Driver wrote:


Jim Macklin wrote:

He had a GPS, but as a high time commuter pilot in a BE1900, he didn't
know how to use it. Their GPS was not current for IFR, but they were
using it. When they crossed the LOM, the GPS autocycled to the MAP
WPT and the crew just did a turn about a point and flew at the IAP
altitude past the airport and died.

I'm not familiar with the KLN 90B but fly a Garmin 300XL which I believe
is of similar vintage and function. In addition, my single CDI is wired
so that it would auto-connect to the NAV radio when tuned to a LOC signal.

Using the Garmin on such an approach to function in place of the ADF and
DME, I would have programmed it similarly. However, flying the
approach would require switching it from 'auto-sequence' to 'hold' just
before passing BALES for the holding pattern turn. That would keep
BALES as the next waypoint. Once inbound to BALES, I would have
switched it to auto=sequence.

Does the KLN 90B function similarly? That is, is there a Hold switch?

I can't speak for a KLN 90B, but we have an 89B in our club Arrow. It
doesn't have a hold switch, but if I understand your description above
of the Garmin hold function, it sounds like the OBS function on the
King. You must put the unit in OBS mode prior to making a course
reversal for a procedure turn.

To be precise, you need to put it into OBS mode before you reach the
holding/FA fix. If you reach the fix first, the box will assume you are
proceeding inbound and will auto-sequence to the next fix.


You then switch back to auto sequence
mode when approaching the FAF.

I haven't yet flown enough with the GPS to feel comfortable using it for
an approach in actual. I'm not flying enough these days to stay
proficient with it and I find that if I don't fly it at least once a
month, I forget the subtleties.

I think a moving map GPS would be the cat's meow, but the 89B style are
terrible, in my opinion. I can go a year between flying an ILS or VOR
approach and still do a credible approach the first time. I just had an
ICC last Friday and I hadn't flown an approach in more than a year. I
was a little rough on the first VOR approach, but the second one was
spot on as were the two ILS I then flew.

The GPS is just not intuitive at all to use and takes way too much
set-up, cross-checking and effort in my opinion. It is amazing how
complicated they made these devices given how simple a typical ILS or
VOR approach is.

Agree 100%. Each vendor seems to have it's own way of doing things too,
making it hard to transition from one to the other. I suppose I'll get
used to them after a few years...



Matt



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

The NTSB said he did not properly fly the approach, that
even though the aircraft was not approved to use the GPS
IFR, the crew obviously was using the GPS to find the LOM
and used it to, in error do the hold, which is why they flew
the approach to their deaths. The crew had just flown over
the LOM and got lost while in a turn.

Read the report, maybe the pilot was skilled, but he
certainly did not exercise good judgment on the flight.




"Beavis" wrote in message
...
| In article ,
| "Jim Macklin"
wrote:
|
| He had a GPS, but as a high time commuter pilot in a
BE1900,
| he didn't know how to use it.
|
| As someone who flew many hours with the captain of that
flight, at the
| airline that flew those 1900s, I can say without a doubt
that you have
| no idea what you're talking about.
|
| Here's a cockpit shot of one of the 1900s he flew:
| http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0585758/L/
|
| I'll leave it as an exercise for you to identify the
device sitting next
| to the copilot's RMI.

In article ,
"Jim Macklin" wrote:

The NTSB said he did not properly fly the approach, that
even though the aircraft was not approved to use the GPS
IFR, the crew obviously was using the GPS to find the LOM
and used it to, in error do the hold...

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree they screwed up and used the GPS improperly.
My issue was with this statement:

| He had a GPS, but as a high time commuter pilot in a
| BE1900, he didn't know how to use it.

And I maintain that's a ridiculous statement, since I've seen first-hand
he knew very well how to use it, and *practiced* it during his time as a
1900 commuter pilot.

Why he didn't apply that knowledge properly that day, we'll never know.
But your suggestion that 1900 time somehow negates GPS knowledge is a
strange one.

Beavis wrote:
/snip/

Here's a cockpit shot of one of the 1900s he flew:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0585758/L/
/snip/

On a completely unrelated note, I see there is a vacuum suction gage on
the instrument panel. What is this for? Apparently all of the "gyro"
instruments are electronic. Is this strictly for the de-ice boots?

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...
PDF from NTSB http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/AAB0601.pdf

One potential "External Pressure" on this flight that many people may not be
aware of is that Ricky Henderson (the team owner's son who died on that
flight) was slated to work as a spotter for one of the Hendrick cars. By
rule, you can not grid your car if your spotter is not in position on the
roof of the grandstand.

IIRC, the Cup race that day had a 1pm Green Flag so that suggests to me they
were running late. Even with a helo standing by at MTV to ferry everyone
from the airport to the track, they'd have been cutting it close.

Doesn't excuse the way in which the crew botched the approach, but it might
(IMO) suggest perhaps some "Get There-itis."

Just $0.02 worth from someone who works on the NASCAR tour.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ
Technician, NASCAR on FOX / NBC / TNT

The KLN 90B gps has a small moving map in its panel display. The NTSB
report alluded to the standard practice was for a track up orientation.
Given that the moving map screen is fairly short vertically, maybe half
its width, in the track up presentation it may not have been as obvious
that they had overflown their waypoints...

Of course, from an armchair quarterbacking perspective, almost all of my
inflight GPS experience has been behind King products, the KLN 89B, -90B
and KLX-135, and didn't seem to have a problem with the display or
depictions. The display was also not on the center console between the
pilots, facing up (as opposed to on the main panel).

Dave

Peter wrote:
"Jim Macklin" wrote


PDF from NTSB http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/AAB0601.pdf



Having read a fair few reports of aircraft flown by professional crew,
perhaps commercially, it amazes me how many do not have what one would
call a moving map GPS.

Unless I am missing something obvious, this sort of thing should not
happen if the pilot has a picture showing his position relative to the
rest of the place.

Maule Driver wrote:


Jim Macklin wrote:


I'm not familiar with the KLN 90B but fly a Garmin 300XL which I believe
is of similar vintage and function. In addition, my single CDI is wired
so that it would auto-connect to the NAV radio when tuned to a LOC signal.

The NTSB indicated that the Pilot's CDI was set up to display NAV even
when GPS was selected on the annunciator. This is typically accomplished
using a multipole relay (like a NAT-80? i think) to enable the NAV
override - its not something switchable on the King Box, its done
downstream. (just fyi.. thats all)



Using the Garmin on such an approach to function in place of the ADF and
DME, I would have programmed it similarly. However, flying the
approach would require switching it from 'auto-sequence' to 'hold' just
before passing BALES for the holding pattern turn. That would keep
BALES as the next waypoint. Once inbound to BALES, I would have
switched it to auto=sequence.

Does the KLN 90B function similarly? That is, is there a Hold switch?

I believe the "OBS" button is used to suspend waypoint sequencing in the
King series, but not positive. Sounds like the guys had the ILS tuned,
which displayed on the CDI..

(armchair speculatio)
BUT had the waypoints entered manually in the GPS and then used the
flashing waypoint light in the PIC's scan to indicate when to step down
(cheating essentially...).. they'd prolly done it many times before
(without a PT).. and this time nobody bothered to look down onto the
center console and VERIFY which waypoint it was annunciating (let alone
fly the approach solely as published using LOC/NAV and DME indications)

The profile seems to indicate they flew the approach with descents one
waypoint out of sequence.. With the database being out of date, it
should not have permitted real GPS approach modes (including a GPS
overlay of the Loc/Vor approach.. so the crew had to have manually
entered the points on their flight plan.