Bend over, folks...

"Alan Baker" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Montblack" wrote:

("jl" wrote)
I saw him a few weeks later about the same time and he waved at me. I
think I taught the little gnatsie a lesson.


The cop was right, you were wrong - with that ....."attitude".


Paul-Mont

Nope.

He was right and the cop was wrong.


No, the cop was right and he was wrong. If we put ourselves in questionable
places and questionable hours, we should support the efforts of any cop that
gets out of the doughnut shop long enough to ask why.

I work very late at my business, and have been shaked down many times in my
own parking lot. What the hell, it's my property and my neighborhood they
are trying to protect.

"Fargo" wrote in message
...
No emotion involved at all. I didn't actually consider how a gun was
conveyed to an event, simply the attitude that it's presence seems to
bring out. It's not about killing, it's about power. I've had years to
observe the behaviour of people with guns. Not impressed. In the case of a
responsible (if needlessly fearful) owner carrying a gun fully concealed,
why would I ever know about it? OTOH, you'de be amazed how quickly they
get pulled out, and the stupidity of the reasons.
I've seen far more bullying from people declaring self defence than any
other source.


You won't see it in the US. If a licensed person pulls a gun without just
cause, he won't have a license (or his freedom) very long.

On Jun 19, 1:02 pm, "Maxwell" wrote:
It's a States Rights issue. Different States have different laws.

Forth ammendment of the US Constitution

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized.

I don't know about the Feds and their Patriot Act, but state and municiple
authorities cannot search your vehicle without probably cause. Agreed,
probable cause can be a slippery slope, but they do not have the right to
search every vehicle at their own will.

That probably should be the law but it is not. Reasonable suspicion
is enough to justify a vehicle search. It is a standard lower than
probable cause, and it is approved by the Supreme Court of the United
States.

And see USA vs. Flores-Montano, which justifies suspicionless
vehicular searches under certain circumstances.

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...


It's a States Rights issue. Different States have different laws.


Forth ammendment of the US Constitution

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported
by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be
searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I don't know about the Feds and their Patriot Act, but state and municiple
authorities cannot search your vehicle without probably cause. Agreed,
probable cause can be a slippery slope, but they do not have the right to
search every vehicle at their own will.


From Findlaw:

"Q : Can the police legitimately search my vehicle without a warrant?
A : That depends on the circumstances. The police would not usually have the
right to search your automobile when you are stopped only for a minor
traffic offense such as speeding, but if the violation requires that you be
taken into custody (for example, a "Driving Under the Influence" [DUI]
arrest or driving with a suspended license), the search would generally be
permitted. If the officer has arrested you, the officer does not need a
warrant to pat down your body in searching for weapons.

In general, when an arrest is not involved, the police have more latitude to
search a vehicle than to search a home. The U.S. Supreme Court recognizes an
automobile exception to the Fourth Amendment's protection against
warrantless searches. The Court has held that a person expects less privacy
in an automobile than at home. (No one ever said "A man's Chevy is his
castle.") The rationale for permitting warrantless searches of cars is that
the mobility of automobiles would allow drivers to escape with incriminating
evidence in the time it would take police to secure a search warrant. For a
warrantless search to be valid, however, the officer must have probable
cause. (See the "Criminal Justice" chapter for more details on this topic.)

Q : What is probable cause?

A : Probable cause, in this context, is a reasonable basis for the officer
to believe that the vehicle contains incriminating evidence, so that the
officer is legally justified in searching it.

Q : What part of the vehicle may the police search if they have probable
cause?

A : Generally, the police officer may search the immediate area at the
driver's command, that is, under and around the front seat. The law is
always changing. Sometimes state constitutions offer greater protection
against searches than the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if you have
questions about a search the police have made of your vehicle, it is best to
consult a lawyer in your state

Q : May the officer search in my glove compartment?

A : Yes, the Supreme Court has held that such a warrantless search is
permissible. The reason is that the glove compartment is within the arrested
driver's reach.

Q : May the officer search a closed container inside my car?

A : Police are permitted to search containers or packages found during a
legitimate warrantless search of a vehicle. The container must be one that
might reasonably contain evidence of a crime for which the officer had
probable cause to search the vehicle in the first place. In 1982, the
Supreme Court ruled that the police do not need a warrant to search closed
containers found in the passenger compartment of an automobile whose
occupant is under arrest.

Q : Can the police legitimately search my vehicle without a warrant?

A : That depends on the circumstances. The police would not usually have the
right to search your automobile when you are stopped only for a minor
traffic offense such as speeding, but if the violation requires that you be
taken into custody (for example, a "Driving Under the Influence" [DUI]
arrest or driving with a suspended license), the search would generally be
permitted. If the officer has arrested you, the officer does not need a
warrant to pat down your body in searching for weapons.

In general, when an arrest is not involved, the police have more latitude to
search a vehicle than to search a home. The U.S. Supreme Court recognizes an
automobile exception to the Fourth Amendment's protection against
warrantless searches. The Court has held that a person expects less privacy
in an automobile than at home. (No one ever said "A man's Chevy is his
castle.") The rationale for permitting warrantless searches of cars is that
the mobility of automobiles would allow drivers to escape with incriminating
evidence in the time it would take police to secure a search warrant. For a
warrantless search to be valid, however, the officer must have probable
cause. (See the "Criminal Justice" chapter for more details on this topic.)

Q : What is probable cause?

A : Probable cause, in this context, is a reasonable basis for the officer
to believe that the vehicle contains incriminating evidence, so that the
officer is legally justified in searching it.

Q : What part of the vehicle may the police search if they have probable
cause?

A : Generally, the police officer may search the immediate area at the
driver's command, that is, under and around the front seat. The law is
always changing. Sometimes state constitutions offer greater protection
against searches than the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if you have
questions about a search the police have made of your vehicle, it is best to
consult a lawyer in your state

Q : May the officer search in my glove compartment?

A : Yes, the Supreme Court has held that such a warrantless search is
permissible. The reason is that the glove compartment is within the arrested
driver's reach.

Q : May the officer search a closed container inside my car?

A : Police are permitted to search containers or packages found during a
legitimate warrantless search of a vehicle. The container must be one that
might reasonably contain evidence of a crime for which the officer had
probable cause to search the vehicle in the first place. In 1982, the
Supreme Court ruled that the police do not need a warrant to search closed
containers found in the passenger compartment of an automobile whose
occupant is under arrest."

"jl" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jun 19, 1:02 pm, "Maxwell" wrote:
It's a States Rights issue. Different States have different laws.

Forth ammendment of the US Constitution

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated,
and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath
or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and
the
persons or things to be seized.

I don't know about the Feds and their Patriot Act, but state and
municiple
authorities cannot search your vehicle without probably cause. Agreed,
probable cause can be a slippery slope, but they do not have the right to
search every vehicle at their own will.

That probably should be the law but it is not. Reasonable suspicion
is enough to justify a vehicle search. It is a standard lower than
probable cause, and it is approved by the Supreme Court of the United
States.

And see USA vs. Flores-Montano, which justifies suspicionless
vehicular searches under certain circumstances.


Got a link?

"Ken Finney" wrote in message
...

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...


It's a States Rights issue. Different States have different laws.


Forth ammendment of the US Constitution

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported
by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be
searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I don't know about the Feds and their Patriot Act, but state and
municiple authorities cannot search your vehicle without probably cause.
Agreed, probable cause can be a slippery slope, but they do not have the
right to search every vehicle at their own will.


From Findlaw:

"Q : Can the police legitimately search my vehicle without a warrant?
A : That depends on the circumstances. The police would not usually have
the right to search your automobile when you are stopped only for a minor
traffic offense such as speeding, but if the violation requires that you
be taken into custody (for example, a "Driving Under the Influence" [DUI]
arrest or driving with a suspended license), the search would generally be
permitted. If the officer has arrested you, the officer does not need a
warrant to pat down your body in searching for weapons.

In general, when an arrest is not involved, the police have more latitude
to search a vehicle than to search a home. The U.S. Supreme Court
recognizes an automobile exception to the Fourth Amendment's protection
against warrantless searches. The Court has held that a person expects
less privacy in an automobile than at home. (No one ever said "A man's
Chevy is his castle.") The rationale for permitting warrantless searches
of cars is that the mobility of automobiles would allow drivers to escape
with incriminating evidence in the time it would take police to secure a
search warrant. For a warrantless search to be valid, however, the officer
must have probable cause. (See the "Criminal Justice" chapter for more
details on this topic.)

Q : What is probable cause?

A : Probable cause, in this context, is a reasonable basis for the officer
to believe that the vehicle contains incriminating evidence, so that the
officer is legally justified in searching it.

Q : What part of the vehicle may the police search if they have probable
cause?

A : Generally, the police officer may search the immediate area at the
driver's command, that is, under and around the front seat. The law is
always changing. Sometimes state constitutions offer greater protection
against searches than the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if you have
questions about a search the police have made of your vehicle, it is best
to consult a lawyer in your state

Q : May the officer search in my glove compartment?

A : Yes, the Supreme Court has held that such a warrantless search is
permissible. The reason is that the glove compartment is within the
arrested driver's reach.

Q : May the officer search a closed container inside my car?

A : Police are permitted to search containers or packages found during a
legitimate warrantless search of a vehicle. The container must be one that
might reasonably contain evidence of a crime for which the officer had
probable cause to search the vehicle in the first place. In 1982, the
Supreme Court ruled that the police do not need a warrant to search closed
containers found in the passenger compartment of an automobile whose
occupant is under arrest.

Q : Can the police legitimately search my vehicle without a warrant?

A : That depends on the circumstances. The police would not usually have
the right to search your automobile when you are stopped only for a minor
traffic offense such as speeding, but if the violation requires that you
be taken into custody (for example, a "Driving Under the Influence" [DUI]
arrest or driving with a suspended license), the search would generally be
permitted. If the officer has arrested you, the officer does not need a
warrant to pat down your body in searching for weapons.

In general, when an arrest is not involved, the police have more latitude
to search a vehicle than to search a home. The U.S. Supreme Court
recognizes an automobile exception to the Fourth Amendment's protection
against warrantless searches. The Court has held that a person expects
less privacy in an automobile than at home. (No one ever said "A man's
Chevy is his castle.") The rationale for permitting warrantless searches
of cars is that the mobility of automobiles would allow drivers to escape
with incriminating evidence in the time it would take police to secure a
search warrant. For a warrantless search to be valid, however, the officer
must have probable cause. (See the "Criminal Justice" chapter for more
details on this topic.)

Q : What is probable cause?

A : Probable cause, in this context, is a reasonable basis for the officer
to believe that the vehicle contains incriminating evidence, so that the
officer is legally justified in searching it.

Q : What part of the vehicle may the police search if they have probable
cause?

A : Generally, the police officer may search the immediate area at the
driver's command, that is, under and around the front seat. The law is
always changing. Sometimes state constitutions offer greater protection
against searches than the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if you have
questions about a search the police have made of your vehicle, it is best
to consult a lawyer in your state

Q : May the officer search in my glove compartment?

A : Yes, the Supreme Court has held that such a warrantless search is
permissible. The reason is that the glove compartment is within the
arrested driver's reach.

Q : May the officer search a closed container inside my car?

A : Police are permitted to search containers or packages found during a
legitimate warrantless search of a vehicle. The container must be one that
might reasonably contain evidence of a crime for which the officer had
probable cause to search the vehicle in the first place. In 1982, the
Supreme Court ruled that the police do not need a warrant to search closed
containers found in the passenger compartment of an automobile whose
occupant is under arrest."


Good information but I think I missed your point.

"Ken Finney" wrote in message
...
"Q : Can the police legitimately search my vehicle without a warrant?
Q : What is probable cause?
Q : What part of the vehicle may the police search if they have probable
cause?
Q : May the officer search in my glove compartment?
Q : May the officer search a closed container inside my car?
Q : Can the police legitimately search my vehicle without a warrant?
Q : What is probable cause?
Q : What part of the vehicle may the police search if they have probable
cause?
Q : May the officer search in my glove compartment?
Q : May the officer search a closed container inside my car?

Got the shakes? Looks like you pasted twice

On Jun 19, 11:06 am, "Maxwell" wrote:
"Alan Baker" wrote in message

...





In article ,
"Montblack" wrote:

("jl" wrote)
I saw him a few weeks later about the same time and he waved at me. I
think I taught the little gnatsie a lesson.

The cop was right, you were wrong - with that ....."attitude".

Paul-Mont

Nope.

He was right and the cop was wrong.

No, the cop was right and he was wrong. If we put ourselves in questionable
places and questionable hours, we should support the efforts of any cop that
gets out of the doughnut shop long enough to ask why.

I work very late at my business, and have been shaked down many times in my
own parking lot. What the hell, it's my property and my neighborhood they
are trying to protect.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What is questionable about a bowling alley parking lot at 1am?

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:15:02 -0700, jl wrote:

On Jun 19, 1:02 pm, "Maxwell" wrote:
It's a States Rights issue. Different States have different laws.

Forth ammendment of the US Constitution

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized.

I don't know about the Feds and their Patriot Act, but state and municiple
authorities cannot search your vehicle without probably cause. Agreed,
probable cause can be a slippery slope, but they do not have the right to
search every vehicle at their own will.

That probably should be the law but it is not. Reasonable suspicion
is enough to justify a vehicle search. It is a standard lower than
probable cause, and it is approved by the Supreme Court of the United
States.

And see USA vs. Flores-Montano, which justifies suspicionless
vehicular searches under certain circumstances.

I've spent the last little bit reading the arguments in that case.
Below is the Court's opinion.

"For the reasons stated, we conclude that the Government's authority
to conduct suspicionless inspections at the border includes the
authority to remove, disassemble, and reassemble a vehicle's fuel
tank. While it may be true that some searches of property are so
destructive as to require a different result, this was not one of
them. The judgment of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth
Circuit is therefore reversed, and the case is remanded for further
proceedings consistent with this opinion."

This case is very limited. It does not address inland searches. First,
it only applies at border inspections and specifically addresses
disassembly of a container. In this case, a gas tank.

cites: http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinio...df/02-1794.pdf

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_a...ts/02-1794.pdf

--Andy Asberry--
------Texas-----

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jun 19, 11:06 am, "Maxwell" wrote:
"Alan Baker" wrote in message

...





In article ,
"Montblack" wrote:

("jl" wrote)
I saw him a few weeks later about the same time and he waved at me.
I
think I taught the little gnatsie a lesson.

The cop was right, you were wrong - with that ....."attitude".

Paul-Mont

Nope.

He was right and the cop was wrong.

No, the cop was right and he was wrong. If we put ourselves in
questionable
places and questionable hours, we should support the efforts of any cop
that
gets out of the doughnut shop long enough to ask why.

I work very late at my business, and have been shaked down many times in
my
own parking lot. What the hell, it's my property and my neighborhood they
are trying to protect.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What is questionable about a bowling alley parking lot at 1am?


One in the morning is good enough for me, but any one in a parking lot, that
doesn't seem to be walking between their parked car and the building is
pretty good too. Remember, these guys are paid to be suspicious, and help
protect our property.

In the example above, the guy was admittedly walking through his own
neighborhood. I want the cops in my neighborhood asking questions.