Israel pays the price for buying only Boeing (and not Airbus)

(JGB) wrote in message . com...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...
(JGB) wrote in message . com...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message

Menachem Begin: "In June 1967 we...had a choice. The Egyptian army
concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was
really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We
decided to attack him." (New York Times, August 21, 1982).

PLEASE read Oren's recent book "Six Days of War" to update yourself
on the realities. While it is true that Nasser would have wanted to
snip further wandering rant

Uhmmm...you DO have a problem staying on subject, don't you? YOU said
that Begin never uttered such comments--here is the proof. Now are you
gonna claim those were not his words?

snip


Source: http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm#Taxpayer

Yeah, a totally honest Arab source.

Nope, a US source, with past members of the Board of Directors
including the likes of the old Senator Fullbright.

Fullbright is as much full of **** as Saddam Hussein.

Suuure....now, you said it was an *Arab* source...and you were (again)
wrong.


But
I have no objection to the US cutting off all aid to ISrael if it
also
cuts off all aid to Egypt

But nobody has been bellyaching about how the US aid to egypt is such
a "burden" to Egyptians. So why cut their aid?

Their aid has no rationale at all. They have numerical superiority.

LOL! Have you been sleeping for the last fifty years? Since when does
numerical superiority guarantee anything? Did it guarantee the Arabs
success in 48, 56, 67, or 73? No? So much for "numerical superiority"
in this argument...

THeir
army is stronger now thanks to US aid than ever in history. They have
the Sinai back and ISrael's strategic depth has been totally negated.
They pay no price for their aid; Israel does. Why should Egypt complain.
Israel's aid comes at a heavy price to ISrael.

They pay no price? Have you missed the condemnation from the more
radical Arab leaders/government since Sadat went to the peace treaty
table?

snip


LOL! On a per capita basis, only to the tune of around $14 thousand
per year (that is per Israeli citizen).

IT MOSTLY GOES STRAIGHT FROM THE US TREASURY TO Boeing and other
defense contractors and THEIR WORKERS!!! Your figures and conclusions
are BOTH bogus!

Then provide some proof; the fact is that we are paying out mucho
bucks and watching the goods head to Israel, for the most part. Then
there is the 25% or so that we allow the Israelis to spend *in Israel*
that we never see *any* return from, not to mention the other
non-military aid that goes to Israel. $14K per Israeli per year and
growing....



Do you
think that
Israelis like living in M-1 tanks and Apache helicopters? If the world
wants
to solve the ME problems, let the world ban all arms and aid from the
region!

The israelis don't HAVE any M1 tanks, FYI.

Oh, but Egypt does. It produces them under license. Israel has its own better
tank, the Merkava II.

The statement was they were living in M1 tanks--kind of hard to do
when they have none.

Okay, Apaches and F-16's. Those make very comfortable living rooms for
the men who almost all serve 30 or more days a year inhabiting them.
Some luxury.

More cheese, please? They would probably spend a bit less time in
those vehicles if they pulled out of the West Bank and negotiated a
return of the Golan to Syria.

snip


Get a grip, PAC 3 is NOT an Israeli modification.

And you know this how?

www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/patriot.htm

http://www.designation-systems.net/d...pp4/pac-3.html (this one from a
regular RAM participant, Andreas Parsch)

Do you need more, or do you think this may be enough to give you a
clue?


or do
you mean the Israeli designed Arrow II that the US did mostly fund, but
mainly to help it get around the US-Soviet ABM treaty since it was an
Israeli project?

LOL! That's a hoot. And that is NOT the reason--try again.

Ha! The simple fact is that Israel has the only working theater ABM
system in the world at the moment, that has passed all of its tests
with flying colors. And it was designed by Israelis and not by Americans.
The US put up most of the money and got control over its sale and full
access to the design and technology. A bargain if there ever was one.

Uhmmm...the only combat tested TBM system currently fielded is
Patriot; you know, the ones the Israelis also have (though not as
advanced as the later US versions, IIRC)?


could be a very serious threat, particularly if
the
Egyptians acquired nukes.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts....and the Israelis already HAVE
nukes.

So do the Americans, thanks to Jewish scientists used during WWII.

Groannn....so you want to make this a racial/religious argument?

The JEwish nation-in-exile was THE major contributor to the creation
and development of nuclear power, period!!! Israel has a thousand times
more RIGHT to nuclear WMD than the US or the UK. Indeed, the US and UK
absconded the patents from Leo Szilard.

Oh, boy...you actually believe all of this tripe, don't you?



ANd there are those in the Egyptian
parliament
calling on Egyptian development of nukes. In fact, the EGyptian army
has
never been a greater threat to Israel than today.

Bull. Pure, unadulterated BS. Even the israeli government does not put
out this kind of farcificial nonsense.

How much of it do you read? Do you read the Israeli Hebrew press? It is a
MAJOR concern, but Israel cannot press it as the US will do nothing much
about it, and Israel won't get anywhere with it. So it does so quietly.
It doesn't go to the press with every concern or complaint.

It ain't a major threat. If you think it is, provide proof otherwise.

Israel doesn't accept your word for it. Go read the Israeli military
press.

Come on, provide some proof; if it is such a prevalent attitude among
the Israeli government as you claim, you should find that easy to do.
Time for you to put up, or shut up.

Brooks

(JGB) wrote in message . com...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...
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Israel kicked Arab ass in '67 using French jets and British tanks.
It conquered all the "occupied" territories without any US help.
It's been losing ground literally ever since.

None of which has anything to do with the false claim that we only
provided Israel with aid after deciding to sell advanced weapons to
neighboring Arab nations. Stick with the subject at hand and control
your rants.

The first sale of modern weapons to Israel was with the Hawk sale by
Kennedy in 1962, snip further off-topic ranting

Again, show where the US started providing aid to israel merely in
order to make weapons sales to the Arab nations...or admit that
statement was instead wrong in the first place.


ISrael kicked Arab ass long before the major "bankrolling" began.
In fact, the US had an embargo on both sides until the early '60s.
I'd be happy if that embargo on both sides were reemplaced, provided
that Europe, Russian and China joined in with it. Israel can produce
its own equipment, and only takes the US stuff because it is provided
for so cheap, nearly free. But Merkava II tank is superior to the Abrams
M1A2, and even the USAF uses Rafael's Python-4 (soon Python-5) AMRAAMs.

No, we don't use the Python AAM (and Python is not an "AMRAAM").

Sorry, I meant AAM. I had heard that the US does use the Python AAM.
Was
I misinformed?

Badly. We use the AIM-9 Sidewinder family.


you are zero for two right there. And again, nothing you have said
disputes the fact that US aid to Israel predates the sale of advanced
US arms to the Arab nations.

If that's the case, let the US and its allies stop selling arms to the
Arabs,

That *is* the case. We were providing major aid to Israel LONG before
we engaged in selling advanced weapons to any neighboring Arab
nations, and even then we provided generally less capable systems to
them than we were providing to Israel. And your "if-then" construct
does not make sense--why should we have to tie our policies regarding
Israel to those we use in dealing with other nations? That should be
OUR choice, not that of Israel, or AIPAC, etc.

snip related and illogical diatribe



more or less. That is the real
reason why there is virtually no congressional opposition to US aid to
Israel,

No, that would be because of AIPAC campaign contributions.

Hardly. Very few rich Jews left in America these days. Most have assimilated
out in the last 20 years.

Nope. But then again, this "rich Jew" bit is your construct, not mine.
I find it generally advisable to stay away from such pedantic
characterizations.

Your characterization that the entire Congress is held captive by a
tiny
number of rich JEws operating through AIPAC is equally ludicrous.

That was NOT my claim--go back and READ the posts. Nowhere have I used
the rather contemptable phrase "rich Jews"--that is YOUR choice of
wording. I am one of those folks who feels it is possible to oppose
some Israeli policies, and many aspects of US aid to Israel, without
it being based upon such inflammatory and bordering-on-racist views as
engendered by that "rich Jew" phrase. My claim IS that AIPAC has more
to do with the lack of Congressional debate on this matter than does
the alleged impact on US defense industry.

snip


If anything, it would be the Christian Right
that would stop arms sales to the Arabs if the US imposed a one-sided
aid and arms embargo on Israel.

They would indeed be a problem in that regard--and this is the very
first uttering you have made which is close to being on-target and
correct. Congratulations--maybe you can now reword your earlier rants
and bring them back into the realm of the discussion at hand.

If there wasn't a single JEw left in America, and no AIPAC, there
wouldn't
be much of a difference. Millions of Bible-believing Christians will
not
allow us to sell the Arabs all the arms they can pay for with the oil
under
their feet, while cutting off all aid to ISrael to help pay for its
own
defense against 100 to 1 numerical superiority. Even if it wasn't
Israel; even
it was Taiwan instead, the fairness of the American give anybody in a
similar posture a fighting chance. Whatever one may say about the
American people, they are innately fair by nature.

LOL! We danged near came close to doing exactly that to Taiwan a
couple of times. The fact is that AIPAC *is* a powerful PAC; sorry,
but that is the case.

snip

Logic fault. If, as this thread posited, Israel *refused* aid, then it
would be unlikely that the Arab nations would also be cut off.

Why should it refuse practically free equipment while the US sells $5B
to its enemies annually? That would be nuts.

This started as a case of an individual whining about Israel losing
potential sales due to its dependence upon US systems. If they want to
cut the apron strings, fine--all they have to do is say "no" to the
aid. But taking the aid and then whining about its repercussions is a
bit of the old "having your cake and eating it too".

Alas you are not aware of what is going on inside ISrael. US companies
are
buying up Israeli defense companies and spiriting their engineers away
to California! From the Israeli perspective, it is big America
limiting their
defense industry and cherry picking off the cream of their brainpower!
Raytheon, Boeing, TRW, et. al, are gutting ISrael companies that have
recently
been privatized, luring their best people away, or forcing those who
are
trying to remain independent to relocate as US companies in California
(and elsewhere) thereby moving their corporate headquarters, with all
the
jobs that corporate headquarters usually generate, "offshore" TO THE
US!!!
The US is NOT a sucker country! When it gives with one hand, it
eventually
takes back with the other! I'm not being critical of American
generosity, but
when it comes to business, Americans are not the patsies as some would
want
to believe. The US did not go into business 227 years ago to make a
loss!
Happy Fourth of July.

Oh, please. Other nations have erected protections against foreign
majority ownership of their critical defense industries, and israel
could as well. But Israel does not want to turn off the tap of US aid
dollars, plain and simple. Fine, but don't then come back and whine
about alleged repercussions. As to those alleged cases of Israeli
brain-drain, that is the peril of maintaining open immigration
policies that allow individuals to migrate in search of better
opportunities for themselves. Is that a crime?


Let the US embargo BOTH sides,
and force Europe, Russian and China to do the same. Let the Arab, who outnumber
Israel 60 to 1, produce their own arms the same way Israel does.

Hard to do that, as Israel is a major foreign supplier of military
goods to the PRC. Israel turned its back on Taiwan in order to further
ingratiate itself with the PRC, and Israelis still periodically whine
over the US putting its foot down over their proposed sale of the
Phalcon radar system to the PLAAF for their AWACS program. The loudest
and most shrill scream you'd hear in response to your proposal would
be from the Israelis, who look upon the PRC as a serious potential
cash cow.

So you agree with the above?

Brooks

snip

On 3 Jul 2003 18:09:06 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

"Close" to each other? Ever heard of Pollard?

Pollard never caused any harm to the US.

Selling every weapon you can to the PRC?

And that would be bad how ? China enjoys a Most Favored Nation status
in the USA.

wrote in message . ..
On 3 Jul 2003 18:09:06 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

"Close" to each other? Ever heard of Pollard?

Pollard never caused any harm to the US.

Selling every weapon you can to the PRC?

And that would be bad how ? China enjoys a Most Favored Nation status
in the USA.


It's tiring to argue with him because he posts fact he knows are
false.
For example, he knows well that Israel don't sell its most advanced
technology to China. Nonetheless it doesn't stop him from posting this
lie again and again. On every second post of him there are false or
distorted arguments.

He will tell you that China has python 3 missiles, but even Chile
already have Python 4's. He will tell you about the phalcon Israel
wanted to sell to China eventhough he knows that Israel Assured the
Americans that the Chinese phalcon didn't contained the latest
generation of the Israeli technologies. Etc.

wrote in message . ..
On 3 Jul 2003 18:09:06 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

"Close" to each other? Ever heard of Pollard?

Pollard never caused any harm to the US.

How do you know that? He was convicted of espionage on behalf of a
nation that has engaged in providing its most advnaced weapons to a
nation that we have to maintain an eye on as a potential
threat--doesn't sound all that innocuous to me.


Selling every weapon you can to the PRC?

And that would be bad how ?

Because they reside at the top of the list of potential state threats
to the US.

China enjoys a Most Favored Nation status
in the USA.

And how many advanced *weapons* do we export to them, or do our firms
even try to? There is a difference between civil trade and military
exports--the same rules do not apply.

Brooks

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 16:02:46 +0200, wrote:

On 3 Jul 2003 18:09:06 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

"Close" to each other? Ever heard of Pollard?

Pollard never caused any harm to the US.

BS, Pollard is a traitor who sold his Countries secrets. He caused
both military and moral damage to the US.

Selling every weapon you can to the PRC?

And that would be bad how ? China enjoys a Most Favored Nation status
in the USA.

MFN no longer exists. China is a nation that we trade with. That does
not make them a friendly, or even neutral, country.

Al Minyard

"Quant" wrote in message
om...
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"Quant" wrote in message
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wrote in message
. ..

snip

American defense contractors would not be too happy if that were to
happen.


Israeli defense contractors will be (very happy).
Friendship between US and Israel is a two way street.

Yes, America will not hate Israel, like "old Europe".


I'm not sure what you intended to say, but I recognize the fact that
America (as contrary to Europe) is dealing with Israel fairly and
without prejudice or hate.

You seem to got it.

I am thankful for that and I think that the
existence of the American nation is the best gift Israel and the world
could get.

We hope to continue to receive the blessing.

"Richard Conway" wrote in message
om...
(JGB) wrote in message
. com...
Steph wrote in message
...
Tarver Engineering nous disait :

Israeli pilots were making jokes about nuking Paris not so many
weeks ago. I think AI has made an enemy.

If they have nukes, it's much thanks to France ...

If the US and France have nukes, it's thanks to the Jews. The atomic
bomb is a Jewish invention.

The atomic bomb was conceptualized by a Jewish individual - the
Manhatten project was not.

The Jews in Chicago made the bomb real.