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"Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 22nd 06, 12:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default "Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"

I actually received this comment today from an FSS (US Flight service)
specialist when I called for an IFR flight briefing for a flight from
Boston back to Syracuse, NY, early this afternoon. The Bridgeport FSS
specialist was not joking either. He went on to say that too often pilots
express concerns to him about seeing yellows and reds on the radar when he
knows there is no convection in the area.

Unbelievable. I made the mistake of responding by pointing out that it
certainly is easy to make those comments while sitting safely in a chair in
a building. I then continued by asking him where he was so that I could
stop by his airport, pick him up, and take him for a ride through some
level three returns. His reply was that he already has plenty of hours
doing just that.


--
Peter
  #2  
Old May 22nd 06, 01:15 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default "Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"


He went on to say that too often pilots
express concerns to him about seeing
yellows and reds on the radar when he
knows there is no convection in the area.


This seems quite reasonable to me. A given level of return might be
quite flyable in stratus, but quite something else in convective
conditions.

  #3  
Old May 22nd 06, 02:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default "Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"

Mike Granby wrote:

This seems quite reasonable to me. A given level of return might be
quite flyable in stratus, but quite something else in convective
conditions.


Today's activity was the result of a low pressure system just over the
border of the US into Canada that sent a pretty strong cold front marching
across New England. The temperature differences on either side of the cold
front were about 30 degrees F.

Now I am not a meteorologist by trade or university, but I am pretty
confident that the level three and higher returns showing up on radar ahead
of this cold front today were not falling from a stratus layer.

Presumably the FSS specialist was quite aware of the weather maker causing
the rain and should have saved his smart-assed comments for another, more
docile day. This day there were good reasons for a single engine aircraft
to avoid the "non-green colors" on radar, given that the big jets all were
making every effort to do so *and* that convective Sigments were released
for portions of New England while we were en route.

--
Peter
  #4  
Old May 22nd 06, 03:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default "Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"

On Sun, 21 May 2006 19:17:03 -0400, "Peter R."
wrote:

I actually received this comment today from an FSS (US Flight service)
specialist when I called for an IFR flight briefing for a flight from
Boston back to Syracuse, NY, early this afternoon. The Bridgeport FSS
specialist was not joking either. He went on to say that too often pilots
express concerns to him about seeing yellows and reds on the radar when he
knows there is no convection in the area.

Unbelievable. I made the mistake of responding by pointing out that it
certainly is easy to make those comments while sitting safely in a chair in
a building. I then continued by asking him where he was so that I could
stop by his airport, pick him up, and take him for a ride through some
level three returns. His reply was that he already has plenty of hours
doing just that.


On a flight just a week or two before I was to take the instrument
check ride my instructor had my file a plan from 3BS - MBS VOR - LAN
(ILS) - AMN (NDB) - 3BS (VOR).

The area between MBS and LAN was about 40 to 50 miles of solid yellow
and red. I questioned the wisdom of flying into such things and my
instructor said, "You did get a briefing didn't you?" to which I
replied, "Yes". He asked, "Was there any convective activity in
progress or forecast?"... No there wasn't. Are conditions favorable
for convective activity? No they weren't. ... Any other questions?
At this point he informed me he was just going to be a passenger even
if he was officially PIC.

So, we picked up our clearance and headed into the rain and man did it
rain! Torrential rain, but it was one of the smoothest rides I've
had. Coming back from Lansing (LAN) to Alma (AMN) was one of the most
picturesque rides I've ever had. We were between layers. There were
columns of cloud joining the two layers and individual clouds floating
around in there. The light was almost a fluorescent green or at least
had a strong green cast. It was beautiful.

The approach into Alma was a left turn to the NDB which is 5 miles
west of the field. Then the PT back to the NDB all the while just
skimming the top of the layer while going through the occasional piece
sticking up. The feeling of speed was tremendous. At the NDB we
started the descent into torrential rain. We broke out about 50 feet
above MDA in heavy rain with the runway directly ahead. We went
missed and headed for home.

Suddenly we were back in bright sunshine and MBS approach told us to
expect the visual into Midland (3BS). Unfortunately of fortunately
depending on your view all we could see in the Midland area was more
clouds. So the reply was we'd like to do the VOR-A into 3BS if it was
OK with them. They didn't know it was solid over there.

We had vectors to intercept the approach inbound which made it an easy
one, but again we were very close to minimums and a mile to the east
of the airport it was below minimums which we reported to app.

It was one whale of a nice ride, a good work out, and three different
approaches right down to almost minimums. All this through what I had
expected to be a really rough ride due to those red and yellow
reflections which really are only showing precipitation.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
  #5  
Old May 22nd 06, 04:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default "Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"

It isn't so much the level of the return, but the gradient
and attenuation. When Doppler radar is available areas of
turbulence can be directly detected. But conventional radar
must be used as a hint to what may be happening, based on
local knowledge, terrain, prevailing weather and even time
of day.
Any FSS, any ground based reporter or forecaster may be as
brave as they want, but to tell a pilot that they should not
be concerned or "act cowardly" is just plain stupid.

I would recommend that any IFR pilot get the books (and if
possible) take Capt. David Gwinn's course on radar. And
read Capt. Robert Buck's book, Weather Flying.

And FSS persons should explain and teach, rather than dare
and goad.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Roger" wrote in
message ...
| On Sun, 21 May 2006 19:17:03 -0400, "Peter R."

| wrote:
|
| I actually received this comment today from an FSS (US
Flight service)
| specialist when I called for an IFR flight briefing for a
flight from
| Boston back to Syracuse, NY, early this afternoon. The
Bridgeport FSS
| specialist was not joking either. He went on to say that
too often pilots
| express concerns to him about seeing yellows and reds on
the radar when he
| knows there is no convection in the area.
|
| Unbelievable. I made the mistake of responding by
pointing out that it
| certainly is easy to make those comments while sitting
safely in a chair in
| a building. I then continued by asking him where he was
so that I could
| stop by his airport, pick him up, and take him for a ride
through some
| level three returns. His reply was that he already has
plenty of hours
| doing just that.
|
| On a flight just a week or two before I was to take the
instrument
| check ride my instructor had my file a plan from 3BS -
MBS VOR - LAN
| (ILS) - AMN (NDB) - 3BS (VOR).
|
| The area between MBS and LAN was about 40 to 50 miles of
solid yellow
| and red. I questioned the wisdom of flying into such
things and my
| instructor said, "You did get a briefing didn't you?" to
which I
| replied, "Yes". He asked, "Was there any convective
activity in
| progress or forecast?"... No there wasn't. Are conditions
favorable
| for convective activity? No they weren't. ... Any other
questions?
| At this point he informed me he was just going to be a
passenger even
| if he was officially PIC.
|
| So, we picked up our clearance and headed into the rain
and man did it
| rain! Torrential rain, but it was one of the smoothest
rides I've
| had. Coming back from Lansing (LAN) to Alma (AMN) was one
of the most
| picturesque rides I've ever had. We were between layers.
There were
| columns of cloud joining the two layers and individual
clouds floating
| around in there. The light was almost a fluorescent green
or at least
| had a strong green cast. It was beautiful.
|
| The approach into Alma was a left turn to the NDB which is
5 miles
| west of the field. Then the PT back to the NDB all the
while just
| skimming the top of the layer while going through the
occasional piece
| sticking up. The feeling of speed was tremendous. At the
NDB we
| started the descent into torrential rain. We broke out
about 50 feet
| above MDA in heavy rain with the runway directly ahead.
We went
| missed and headed for home.
|
| Suddenly we were back in bright sunshine and MBS approach
told us to
| expect the visual into Midland (3BS). Unfortunately of
fortunately
| depending on your view all we could see in the Midland
area was more
| clouds. So the reply was we'd like to do the VOR-A into
3BS if it was
| OK with them. They didn't know it was solid over there.
|
| We had vectors to intercept the approach inbound which
made it an easy
| one, but again we were very close to minimums and a mile
to the east
| of the airport it was below minimums which we reported to
app.
|
| It was one whale of a nice ride, a good work out, and
three different
| approaches right down to almost minimums. All this
through what I had
| expected to be a really rough ride due to those red and
yellow
| reflections which really are only showing precipitation.
|
| Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
| (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
| www.rogerhalstead.com


  #6  
Old May 22nd 06, 11:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default "Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"

On Sun, 21 May 2006 22:33:08 -0400, Roger wrote:

snip

It was one whale of a nice ride, a good work out, and three different
approaches right down to almost minimums. All this through what I had
expected to be a really rough ride due to those red and yellow
reflections which really are only showing precipitation.


Great post Roger,

While I agree with Peter on convective yellows and reds, if it's stratiform
clouds and no convective activity expected or conducive of convective
activity, I personally don't mind the yellows returns. I like you
experienced one of the smoothest rides in rainy weather in stratiform
clouds.

I have never KNOWINGLY flown through red precip returns, that's for sure,
but that's not to say I haven't gone through an embedded red return.

Talk about an impromptu shower, when the rain comes through the air vents
:-)

Allen
  #7  
Old May 24th 06, 03:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default "Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"

Jim Macklin wrote:


And FSS persons should explain and teach, rather than dare
and goad.


They are human beings, and their jobs are being outsourced.
  #8  
Old May 24th 06, 03:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default "Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"



Sam Spade wrote:
Jim Macklin wrote:


And FSS persons should explain and teach, rather than dare and goad.


They are human beings, and their jobs are being outsourced.




The jobs haven't been outsourced, the employer has.

  #9  
Old May 24th 06, 03:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default "Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"

Sam Spade wrote:

They are human beings, and their jobs are being outsourced.


Spare me the "it's not their fault" argument. A true professional is able
to keep his/her personal issues from interfering with the job, especially
if this job has some influence on the safety of others.


--
Peter
  #10  
Old May 24th 06, 03:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default "Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"

Newps wrote:



Sam Spade wrote:

Jim Macklin wrote:


And FSS persons should explain and teach, rather than dare and goad.


They are human beings, and their jobs are being outsourced.





The jobs haven't been outsourced, the employer has.


Aa well as their FAA retirement. It is now vaporware. The ones who
could find other jobs in the FAA have jumped ship from the new employer.
The new employer is a preditor.
 




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