Does the FAA have written policy WRT landouts?

At 04:29 22 December 2011, Larry Suter wrote:
Does the FAA have any written policy/advisory circulars on
landouts that don't involve damage or injury and whether or not
they're reportable to NTSB?

I believe that many years ago a 1-26 Association member managed to get a
position-statement letter from the FAA saying this is NOT an accident. It
might have been Harry Baldwin ? Copies may still be around - any leads ?

Ian

At 15:18 22 December 2011, T8 wrote:
On Dec 22, 9:17=A0am, John Cochrane
wrote:

It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and
tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone
calls say.

John Cochrane

I had a friendly conversation with the 911 dispatch folks in NH (on
the 800 number I found on the website, not "'911"!) about this issue
after we received all sorts of unwanted "help" with a routine club
1-23 retrieve... including a medivac helicopter, fire trucks, police
cruisers, etc. etc. They did say we could feel free to call 911 as
you suggest. I don't know anyone who has actually done this. It's
hard to believe you could call 911 and *not* get a visit from someone
wearing a badge and a gun, but if it seems inevitable, it's probably
worth a try. The waste of expensive resources on a perfect, safe, no
damage to anything landout was something to behold.



-Evan Ludeman / T8

I have routinely called 911 after landing in a perfectly good airport that
was abandoned and locked. Most of the time they give me the code to the
gate and thats as far as it goes. A few times they send a rep (cop usually)
to open it. And only once (and I didn't even land yet) have the full
brigrade shown up including mercenaries to search , detain and harrass for
awhile till they got there adrenaline fill for the evening. It was pretty
amazing watching 6 ex marines standing around/over Rose with sub machines
guns like she might get away But that is another story

At 15:18 22 December 2011, T8 wrote:
On Dec 22, 9:17=A0am, John Cochrane
wrote:

It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and
tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone
calls say.

John Cochrane

I had a friendly conversation with the 911 dispatch folks in NH (on
the 800 number I found on the website, not "'911"!) about this issue
after we received all sorts of unwanted "help" with a routine club
1-23 retrieve... including a medivac helicopter, fire trucks, police
cruisers, etc. etc. They did say we could feel free to call 911 as
you suggest. I don't know anyone who has actually done this. It's
hard to believe you could call 911 and *not* get a visit from someone
wearing a badge and a gun, but if it seems inevitable, it's probably
worth a try. The waste of expensive resources on a perfect, safe, no
damage to anything landout was something to behold.



-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Dec 22, 9:02*am, Tony wrote:
On Dec 22, 8:50*am, JohnDeRosa wrote:





Here is the link to NTSB Part 830....

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...d=2150208c5457...

The key part seems to be shown in "830.2 Definitions". *To me this
doesn't really apply to an uneventful landout...except that (like most
FAA/NTSB documentation) it is open to interpretation.

"Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation
of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards
the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have
disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury,
or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage."

"Incident means an occurrence other than an accident, associated with
the operation of an aircraft, which affects or could affect the safety
of operations."

Another Key definition is:

Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the
structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the
aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement
of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an
engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or
cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric,
ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing
gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips
are not considered “substantial damage” for the purpose of this part.

I agree that there isn't much in the "Aircraft Accident" or the
"Substantial Damange" definitions that would point anyone to need to
notify the NTSB if a clean landout occurs.

The gotch catch-all is the "Incident" definition which states
"...affects or could affect the safety of operations.". This is
something that someone MIGHT think applies to any landout. This
sentence basically says we need to predict the future because this
clean landout might affect the next non-clean landout. Huh?

- John

On Dec 22, 7:18*am, T8 wrote:
On Dec 22, 9:17*am, John Cochrane
wrote:



It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and
tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone
calls say.

John Cochrane

I had a friendly conversation with the 911 dispatch folks in NH (on
the 800 number I found on the website, not "'911"!) about this issue
after we received all sorts of unwanted "help" with a routine club
1-23 retrieve... including a medivac helicopter, fire trucks, police
cruisers, etc. etc. *They did say we could feel free to call 911 as
you suggest. *I don't know anyone who has actually done this. *It's
hard to believe you could call 911 and *not* get a visit from someone
wearing a badge and a gun, but if it seems inevitable, it's probably
worth a try. *The waste of expensive resources on a perfect, safe, no
damage to anything landout was something to behold.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Couple of years ago I landed in a field next to HWY 580 which is a
major hwy. The landout was easily visible form the road, so I figured
sooner or later someone will call 911. So I did exactly as John
suggested, called 911 and explained that there was no emergency, and
indeed no one showed up.
However I also know of a pilot who did not call 911, waited until the
police arrived, and talked them into giving him a ride back...

Ramy

On Dec 22, 2:39*pm, Ramy wrote:
Couple of years ago I landed in a field next to HWY 580 which is a
major hwy. The landout was easily visible form the road, so I figured
sooner or later someone will call 911. So I did exactly as John
suggested, called 911 and explained that there was no emergency, and
indeed no one showed up.
However I also know of a pilot who did not call 911, waited until the
police arrived, and talked them into giving him a ride back...

When I landed in a field, a police cruiser stopped by a minute later.
Turns out, he was just passing by and saw me. On my request, he called
his dispatcher and let them know that there was no plane crash. AND I
got my ride back!

Bart

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:29:20 +0000, Cliff Hilty wrote:

And only once (and I didn't even land yet) have the full
brigrade shown up including mercenaries to search , detain and harrass
for awhile till they got there adrenaline fill for the evening. It was
pretty amazing watching 6 ex marines standing around/over Rose with sub
machines guns like she might get away But that is another story

When I was still pre-solo I went to help get an LS-8 out of a field about
20 miles from our airfield. It had landed in a big field behind a village
and, as you might guess, one of the locals had dialled 999 to report a
plane crash. When we arrived the last of the cops etc. had just left. On
rolling up with the trailer and asking a woman how to get into the field,
she told us and then had a small rant about how come a land-out that
wasn't even an emergency could block the main street with an ambulance,
fire engine and two squad cars, but somehow the cops, medics and firemen
were never available for a real emergency.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On 12/22/11 2:39 PM, Ramy wrote:
On Dec 22, 7:18 am, wrote:
On Dec 22, 9:17 am, John
wrote:



It may be a good idea to call 911 immediately after landing out and
tell them that there is NO accident, no matter what their other phone
calls say.

John Cochrane

I had a friendly conversation with the 911 dispatch folks in NH (on
the 800 number I found on the website, not "'911"!) about this issue
after we received all sorts of unwanted "help" with a routine club
1-23 retrieve... including a medivac helicopter, fire trucks, police
cruisers, etc. etc. They did say we could feel free to call 911 as
you suggest. I don't know anyone who has actually done this. It's
hard to believe you could call 911 and *not* get a visit from someone
wearing a badge and a gun, but if it seems inevitable, it's probably
worth a try. The waste of expensive resources on a perfect, safe, no
damage to anything landout was something to behold.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Couple of years ago I landed in a field next to HWY 580 which is a
major hwy. The landout was easily visible form the road, so I figured
sooner or later someone will call 911. So I did exactly as John
suggested, called 911 and explained that there was no emergency, and
indeed no one showed up.
However I also know of a pilot who did not call 911, waited until the
police arrived, and talked them into giving him a ride back...

Ramy


And Ramy retrieved me from a field once where I landed out after
crossing over I5, a major Highway in the San Joaquin Valley. As I was on
my cell phone to let the gliderport I had take off from know I had
landed out and was OK I see two police cruisers and a county fire-rescue
truck coming at me across the field with lights and sirens. Turns out
that somebody had called 911 and reported an "aircraft crash with
injuries". It was pretty obvious that there was no "crash" and no
injuries. We chatted for a while about how landouts are a normal part of
gliding and we are prepared for them and its not an emergency (fudging
over the fact that this was actually a motorglider with pilot error
induced failure to in-flight restart-oops).

The county radio dispatcher was being a real pain on the radio,
insisting the "crash" needed to be reported to the FAA immediately but
all the on-site police and paramedics (around 6 staff) realized this was
just silly and wanted about as little to do with dealing with
bureaucracy as I did so they eventually convinced the dispatcher to be
quiet (I had to laugh when they all described her as "a pain in the
ass") and we finished up talking a bit more about gliders and they just
asked next time to preemptively call 911 and make clear that you are the
pilot in command and describe the situation. They also wanted to make
sure I had drinking water, somebody was coming to pick me up etc.
checked if I needed a lift etc. I would like to avoid this in future and
would err on the side of just calling 911 preemptively and being ultra
calm and just let them know what is going on. I think that also
potentially helps if you find yourself in the situation with a hostile
land owner--it allows you to say all the usual really sorry about
landing here stuff, but also to let them know you have called 911 to
report the landout may help. YMMV of course.

Darryl

On a landout, my first call is to 911 and tell them that the call is
not an emergency, then I tell them I've landed out and that I do not
need assistance from "first responders."

One time, it was interesting in that the 911 dispatcher asked me where
I was. Well, I was in North Carolina, but I wasn't sure exactly which
county, knowing I was pretty close to the county line. I was going to
give the 911 person my longitude and latitude, but he said he had it
and he then told me what county I was in. Later on, the landowner -
farmer arrived, with a big pistol in a holster on his hip, and he told
me I was in a different county than what the 911 dispatcher said.
Then, he started thinking and then agreed with the county dispatcher.
Apparently, the county line crossed the big field I had landed in. I
suppose the 911 dispatcher is looking at the phone's location on a GIS
map. By the way, the farmer told me he was carrying the pistol
because he had seen a mama bear and a cub walking in his field and he
was out checking on where to set up his deer hunting stand and didn't
want to surprise the mama bear. But if he did, he wanted to be
armed. He told me the pistol wasn't because I was out there. Whew!

The idea of calling 911 and letting them know it's not an emergency is
so they don't send a large number of people and equipment out to check
on a "crash". On the other hand, if I did crash, the rescue teams
might be needed. So I don't want the "first responders" to get into
the notion that they don't have to respond to ANY glider that has
landed out. If one or two law enforcement officers show up, I don't
see that as a problem at all.

One time, I landed at a runway that had been closed and is used by the
county to train the first responders to drive. Most of the runway had
a bunch of traffic cones on it, but I managed to find a spot long
enough to safely land. I pushed the glider to the parallel taxiway
(which would have been PERFECT to land on...) and soon, I had about
three police cruisers and five or six policemen from the classroom
come out to meet me. As said in a previous post, their dispatcher
wanted the police to not only call the FAA, but to arrest me. But the
on-site policemen were really nice and said the dispatcher was a dork
and beside, the dispatcher wasn't their boss. One policeman said he
was glad I landed at a "safe" place rather in the forested areas
around the airport.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

Some law enforcement and fire-rescue "standard procedures" include
calling the FAA for any aircraft incident.
The dispatchers probably get out the "book" and start relaying this to
the field officers.