soaring into the future

There are many well known ways to reduce the manufacturing costs of
composite structures. It just takes sophisticated tooling. The problem
with gliders is that no one design has ever been made in sufficient numbers
to justify the up-front costs of that tooling. The result is hand made, low
production rate gliders and high unit costs.

The big advantage of a "one-design" is not so much in leveling the playing
field in contests, it's the hope that the design can be made in large enough
numbers for a manufacturer to justify the costs of advanced manufacturing
methods.

The wingspan or whether a glider has flaps or retractable gear doesn't
matter very much if the numbers are there. The solution doesn't lie in
designing a small, simple glider, it lies in a design that satisfies a large
number of buyers. Find that design, build it in large numbers and the unit
costs can be very low.

For example, how many buyers are there for a brand new LS-4 selling for
$25,000 - quite a few I expect.

So, how do you get it started? Don't start a new competition class,
re-jigger an old one. For example, take the sports/club class and provide a
handicap advantage for the "one-design". Any pilot can still fly whatever
but the new design will have an advantage built into its handicap. Over
time, the population of the new design will increase until a real
"one-design" class emerges.

If the design is popular enough and the rules guarantee the handicap
advantage is permanent, the manufacturer may commit to the tooling and
processes that drive down the cost. Of course, you have to have a
commitment from the manufacturer that the price will follow costs down.
Maybe the handicap advantage is only available to gliders whose price is
less than a set figure.


Bill Daniels


"Shawn" wrote in message
. ..
Brad wrote:
Hi Shawn,

snip

I suspect the prepreg technique used in the Sparrowhawk is in the right
direction.

Here is disagree. Greg is fortunate to have use of the huge autoclave
at the Lancair/Columbia factory, I think.
Although Out of Autoclave could be done with the right tooling and
materials. But I think wet layup and vacuum bagging would be cheaper.

Agreed, I'm thinking to make a big dent in glider price (I'm in the
depressed Dollar US, and I *won't* buy a Chinese glider) the method of
manufacturing will have to be very different.
More composite manufacturers making aircraft and wind turbine parts might
make more autoclave space available. Heated molds are a possibility (read
about it on a wind turbine site). I suspect new composite technology is
coming along all the time (not my field). A fuselage formed by winding
carbon fiber tape around a male mold seems pretty straightforward, spars
too. I don't know if a wing could be made with a precise enough profile
in this way, interesting thought though. I know there are specialty
companies applying all sorts of new composite technology. Farming out
rather than investing in house might make a lot of sense in the small
numbers world of sailplane manufacturing. Save on tooling, benefit from
the sub's economy of scale. Certainly not business as usual in the glider
industry.

snip

P.S. Sorry that this is so disjointed, dinner's ready :-)

mines on hold.......had to take a dog to the vets......

Hope the pup's OK. Had to do this three weeks and four stitches to the
leg ago.


Shawn

Marc Ramsey wrote:
Shawn wrote:
Brad wrote:
Here is disagree. Greg is fortunate to have use of the huge
autoclave at the Lancair/Columbia factory, I think. Although Out
of Autoclave could be done with the right tooling and materials.
But I think wet layup and vacuum bagging would be cheaper.

Agreed, I'm thinking to make a big dent in glider price (I'm in the
depressed Dollar US, and I *won't* buy a Chinese glider) the
method of manufacturing will have to be very different. More
composite manufacturers making aircraft and wind turbine parts
might make more autoclave space available. Heated molds are a
possibility (read about it on a wind turbine site). I suspect new
composite technology is coming along all the time (not my field).
A fuselage formed by winding carbon fiber tape around a male mold
seems pretty straightforward, spars too. I don't know if a wing
could be made with a precise enough profile in this way,
interesting thought though. I know there are specialty companies
applying all sorts of new composite technology. Farming out rather
than investing in house might make a lot of sense in the small
numbers world of sailplane manufacturing. Save on tooling, benefit
from the sub's economy of scale. Certainly not business as usual
in the glider industry.

The Edgley EA9 was primarily constructed from CNC laser cut composite
honeycomb panels, wrapped around and bonded to ribs and formers.
Clearly this can't produce a super accurate wing profile, but might
result in some reduction in the labor required to produce wing or
fuselage parts.

Different altogether than winding tape around a mold.
Also the EA9 was another exercise in butt ugly glider. Maybe that was
just the green color :-p

From this site:
http://www.advancedcompositetraders.com/html/news.html

Fiber placement and tape laying

The fiber placement process automatically places multiple individual
pre-impregnated tows onto a mandrel at high speed, using a
numerically controlled placement head to dispense, clamp, cut and
restart each tow during placement. Minimum cut length (the shortest
tow length a machine can lay down) is the essential ply-shape
determinant. The fiber placement heads can be attached to a 5-axis
gantry or retrofitted to a filament winder or delivered as a turnkey
custom system. Machines are available with dual mandrel stations to
increase productivity. Advantages of fiber place~ ment fabrication
include speed, reduced material scrap and labor costs, parts
consolidation and improved part-to-part uniformity. The process is
employed when producing large thermoset parts with complex shapes.

Tape laying is an even speedier auto~ mated process in which
prepregged tape, rather than single tows, is laid down con~
continuously to form parts. It is often used for parts with highly
complex contours or angles. Tape lay up is versatile, allowing breaks
in the process and easy direction changes. Capital expenditures for
computer-driven, automated equipment can be significant, however.
Suitable for both simple and complex parts, tape laying is the
current method of choice for wing skin panels on the F-22 Raptor
fighter jet.

As I said before, this would be farmed out to a subcontractor who's
already made the capital investment, unless the glider world sees really
amazing growth.

Shawn

Bill Daniels wrote:
For example, how many buyers are there for a brand new LS-4 selling for
$25,000 - quite a few I expect.

Yes, you could sell one to me at that price, the trick is producing
using traditional fabrication techniques for less than $25,000 in
materials and labor. I don't think it can be done anymore...

Marc

Hi Guys,

I think that the tooling required to make the "simple" glider I
propose need not be overly "sophisticated" After being intimately
involved with the Russia kit and the Apis kit, and studying the TST-
Atlas, I really belive that these ships and manufacturing methods are
valid and produce nice aircraft. If all one looks at are the latest
from Europe, or even the racing glass over the last 20 years, you get
the impression that sophisticated tooling and elaborate parts are a
must-have. Indeed, they probably are a must have for these ships, and
these manufacturers have done a marvelous job with their tooling and
thus the parts. But a simple glider does not need all those "parts"

A fuselage plug can be made on a CNC router using REN board or any
suitable tooling medium. My put would be to use a HD REN board, make a
LH and RH plug split along BL-00, wax and PVA the heck out of it and
pull a mold. The fuselage if designed right, would not require vacuum
bagging, therefore several of the internal bits could be installed,
taped in place and co-cured along with the skin lay-up, saving a lot
of time and materials. A tool to wind a fuselage would require A LOT
of money and most likely would not appeal to anyone with high ROI
hopes. Wet lay-up is still a valid way to make a fuselage, I've layed
up several in the last few years and it is actually kinda fun!

As far as the wing goes, I think the LS-3 wing style is the way to go.
Perhaps aerodynamicaly speaking it may suffer over a modern planform,
but most of those modern planforms are on sailplanes that are state of
the art and their prices reflect that. A simple tapered planform
drives simplicity down the line: straight spar along the 40% C,
straight rear spar, straight hinge axis, straight
flaperon.................all these parts and their tooling/jigging
would be far simpler and cheaper to manufacture.

As Shawn shows in the link he posted, 3k carbon can now be found
relatively cheap, compared to a year ago when availability was scarce
and the price over $45 a yard. I would want to use the best material
for the job; if it required carbon or e-glass then use
it.................and of course a good epoxy.

I am a shop forman doing composites; we are daily designing, cutting,
and making tooling and parts and I know somthing like this can be
done. As Jaun Trippe said, it is a Sporting game...............who
wants to play?

Cheers,
Brad

PS................Shawn, glad to hear your pup is
OK.................ours is still at the vet..........

Marc Ramsey wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote:
For example, how many buyers are there for a brand new LS-4 selling
for $25,000 - quite a few I expect.

Yes, you could sell one to me at that price, the trick is producing
using traditional fabrication techniques for less than $25,000 in
materials and labor. I don't think it can be done anymore...

IMHO the trick is convincing the manufacturers to ditch the traditional
fabrication techniques, materials, labor, and business model.


Shawn

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
news
Bill Daniels wrote:
For example, how many buyers are there for a brand new LS-4 selling for
$25,000 - quite a few I expect.

Yes, you could sell one to me at that price, the trick is producing using
traditional fabrication techniques for less than $25,000 in materials and
labor. I don't think it can be done anymore...

Marc

Exactly. Traditional hand labor can't produce any glider for that price.
But state-of-the-art composite manufacturing processes MAY be able to do it
if you can ramp up the production rate.

Hopefully, all the development going into windmill blade production will
result in the right manufacturing base.

BTW, it's not the LS-4 or the price - it's the combination.

Bill Daniels

Exactly. *Traditional hand labor can't produce any glider for that price..
But state-of-the-art composite manufacturing processes MAY be able to do it
if you can ramp up the production rate.


Bill,

I think you could do hand-layup and still have an attractive price. A
good portion of the work is the finish work, and with the high gloss
the new ships have, you pay for it.

Simple airframes with reduced part counts, are a start.

The up-front tooling costs to use automated processes would be way to
costly, at least for a small company to bootstrap itself into this
biz. IMHO.

Brad

Shawn wrote:
From this site:
http://www.advancedcompositetraders.com/html/news.html

Fiber placement and tape laying

The fiber placement process automatically places multiple individual
pre-impregnated tows onto a mandrel at high speed, using a
numerically controlled placement head to dispense, clamp, cut and
restart each tow during placement. Minimum cut length (the shortest
tow length a machine can lay down) is the essential ply-shape
determinant. The fiber placement heads can be attached to a 5-axis
gantry or retrofitted to a filament winder or delivered as a turnkey
custom system. Machines are available with dual mandrel stations to
increase productivity. Advantages of fiber place~ ment fabrication
include speed, reduced material scrap and labor costs, parts
consolidation and improved part-to-part uniformity. The process is
employed when producing large thermoset parts with complex shapes.

Tape laying is an even speedier auto~ mated process in which
prepregged tape, rather than single tows, is laid down con~
continuously to form parts. It is often used for parts with highly
complex contours or angles. Tape lay up is versatile, allowing breaks
in the process and easy direction changes. Capital expenditures for
computer-driven, automated equipment can be significant, however.
Suitable for both simple and complex parts, tape laying is the
current method of choice for wing skin panels on the F-22 Raptor
fighter jet.

As I said before, this would be farmed out to a subcontractor who's
already made the capital investment, unless the glider world sees really
amazing growth.

Given the competing customers for production time in such facilities, I
tend to doubt that "low cost" is being given much attention. But, in
any case, the only way to produce future gliders for an affordable price
will be through innovative manufacturing techniques...

Marc

Marc,

I have some images of the latest concepts I can send you if you are
interested. Let me know and where to send them and I will.

Brad


On Dec 26, 10:04*am, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Shawn wrote:
*From this site:
http://www.advancedcompositetraders.com/html/news.html

Fiber placement and tape laying

The fiber placement process automatically places multiple individual
pre-impregnated tows onto a mandrel at high speed, using a
numerically controlled placement head to dispense, clamp, cut and
restart each tow during placement. Minimum cut length (the shortest
tow length a machine can lay down) is the essential ply-shape
determinant. The fiber placement heads can be attached to a 5-axis
gantry or retrofitted to a filament winder or delivered as a turnkey
custom system. Machines are available with dual mandrel stations to
increase productivity. Advantages of fiber place~ ment fabrication
include speed, reduced material scrap and labor costs, parts
consolidation and improved part-to-part uniformity. The process is
employed when producing large thermoset parts with complex shapes.

Tape laying is an even speedier auto~ mated process in which
prepregged tape, rather than single tows, is laid down con~
continuously to form parts. It is often used for parts with highly
complex contours or angles. Tape lay up is versatile, allowing breaks
in the process and easy direction changes. Capital expenditures for
computer-driven, automated equipment can be significant, however.
Suitable for both simple and complex parts, tape laying is the
current method of choice for wing skin panels on the F-22 Raptor
fighter jet.

As I said before, this would be farmed out to a subcontractor who's
already made the capital investment, unless the glider world sees really
amazing growth.

Given the competing customers for production time in such facilities, I
tend to doubt that "low cost" is being given much attention. *But, in
any case, the only way to produce future gliders for an affordable price
will be through innovative manufacturing techniques...

Marc- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Brad wrote:
The up-front tooling costs to use automated processes would be way to
costly, at least for a small company to bootstrap itself into this
biz. IMHO.

I'd say that a big part of the necessary innovation will be in figuring
out how to fabricate low cost equipment and tooling that can automate
some aspects of the production process without breaking the bank. Given
commodity availability of laser-based precision 3D locating devices,
servos and associated controllers, plus ubiquitous computers, the main
thing that seems to missing is rethinking the nature of the tooling one
uses for these processes.

By the way, one of the classic arguments against the PW-5 and similar
"low end" gliders, was that it was possible to obtain decent used
gliders with greater performance for the same price. Unfortunately (or
fortunately, if you have one to sell) here in the US the supply of
decent used gliders in the $20K to $30K range has pretty much dried up.
This appears to be due to a combination of market forces, as the sky
high price of new gliders has increased the demand and price for the 10
to 15 year old gliders that used to be the "bread and butter" of the
market. The owners of decent 15 to 20 year old gliders appear to be
holding onto what they have, as they can't be replaced for a reasonable
price. Plus, every US gliderport has a number of 25+ year old glass
gliders rotting in trailers, as it is no longer economical to refinish
them...

Marc