soaring into the future

On Dec 27, 6:14*pm, Brad wrote:
Hi Tony,

I learned to fly sailplanes in 1979. Trained in a 2-33, a Blanik and
occasionally in a Lark IS-28B2. Most of my training was in the 2-33. I
loved it. I had several instructors but my favorite was an old guy
named Stan. He was firm and fair and rode me hard when needed. The
2-33 was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen. I didn't like the
Blanik and the Lark seemed like somthing only astronauts would be able
to fly. But...........along with the 2-33, the little 1-26 was there
and I knew one day I would fly that ship. R.A.S. did not exist back
then, so I didn't know that the 2-33 sucked, and the 1-26 was just a
piece of tin, so it was in total ignorance when, as a student, I took
the 2-33 up to cloudbase and flew it all the way from Issaquah to
Marymore Park and back, under a 4500' cloudstreet. She seemed eager
and up to the task, and I was dumb enough to go for it. Later I got to
fly the 1-26. I flew it many times up on Tiger Mountain, the most
memorable flight was in strong south winds and strong ridge lift. I
was hooked.

Ignorance truly is bliss. One of our clubs most enthusiastic members
trained exclusively in our old beat up 2-22 as he's too tall for the
blanik. He is looking forward to doing some cross country this
spring. Hell, my legally blind grandma can't wait to fly cross
country with me this spring in the 22. One of Matt's first cross
country flights was in our 2-22 or 2-33 under a booming cloud street,
nearly a 20 mile out and return, with a passenger! do NOT tell us
that "it cannot be done"!!

Occasionally the guys with the ASW-15's would show up at the field and
I felt I was in the presence of greatness, and badly wanted to fly one
of those someday, but that never tarnished my opinions of those 2
metal birds that gave me so much fun.

Fast forward............I became a hang glider pilot. Advancing
quickly to my advanced rating with all the special check-offs, even
got my winch rating. Some of my favorite flights were drifting at low
level in light ridge lift, just above the trees and feeling every tiny
breeze. Landing in peoples back yards became common place, and I never
feared "going for it"

Today, I fly an Apis-13 that I built from a kit. It gets maybe 35:1.
Like your Cherokee, it can effortlessley drift at low altitudes and if
I need to put her in a small field, I can land in less than 200'. I
can also center a thermal at 200' and continue with the flight.

i dont feel i can safely thermal out that low, but I have done many
cross countries drifting along. most of these never got me more than
20 or 30 miles from home but shoot it was fun. Doing this kind of
thing in the middle of summer when corn is 8 feet tall required me to
'tip toe through the tulips' and being able to land in tiny pastures
defintely was a good thing!


I am a proponent of this kind of flying, and of gliders that can do
this kind of flying. It is not for everybody, and the guys with the
heavier wing loadings blow by me everytime, but for me..............a
"light" ship that handles well, is easy to rig, easy to fly and climbs
like an eagle is my cup of tea.

Might there be some more folks that like that kind of flying out
there?

Brad
199AK

Brad - I think that if we can get the cost down to what I managed to
pull off on the Cherokee (under 5000 for the glider and trailer) they
will be pouring out of the woodwork. Can't wait to see you in
Albuquerque, I think we're going to get along just fine

*One of Matt's first cross
country flights was in our 2-22 or 2-33 under a booming cloud street,
nearly a 20 mile out and return, with a passenger!

Actually, it was a 35 mile triangle with the first leg INTO a 25 knot
wind. Even a 2-33 can go the distance under a great cloud street at
7000 agl.

MM

Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

toad wrote:
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Maybe soaring will see an upside to the real estate bubble pop. With
the glut of foreclosures, demand for land to build subdivisions is
probably right around zero. Then again with the value of corn, farmers
may start buying up subdivisions and "plowing them under". ;-)


Shawn

"toad" wrote in message
...
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Todd, I think you overstate the situation.

I have asked three airport managers about winch launch and the response was
"bring it on". It seems almost universal that glider pilots assume winch
operations would be turned down so they don't actually ask. Ask in a
reasonable way and you may be surprised at the answer.

Managers of small airports that have traditionally served small, single
engine airplanes have seen the number of operations at their airports drop
dramatically as the price of 100LL avgas has soared. (Many predict 100LL
will become non-existant within the next three years.) That drop in
operations has them worried about their jobs which, to a degree, depends on
public demand for airport services.

Against this background, a proposal that would bring 100's of operations per
day, even if they are gliders, can look pretty good, particularly if those
operations don't generate noise complaints.

Work up an reasonable winch operations plan with lots of information about
other successful operations and present it. Can't hurt.

Bill Daniels
p.s. I you want help, e-mail me.

On Dec 28, 9:37 am, toad wrote:
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Finger Lakes bought the old PGC winch and is using it at Dansville, a
mixed use airport, since 2007. The Soaring Sooners are winching,
since 2007, from a rather under utilized public airport with a nice
new hangar full of gliders mostly. Greater Houston Soaring
Association built a gliderport in recent years and winches regularly.
They did great PR with the local government and locals before moving
ahead to defuse any objections as they also self-launch and have
multiple tow planes.

You will get much less objection to establishing a new gliderport with
a winch than a tow plane. Land can also be mixed use, and leased,
rather than purchased. Local regulations can be problematic or not.
If you are in a club, you will likely get more objection from your
geezer members to setting up a winch only club than you will from
neighbors.

There are geographic limitations to flat land availability in many
areas, so it can be challenging. Suitable ridge and hill top sites
generally require less land than flat land sites for winching.

Somehow the Europeans have been able do this with generally higher
population densities and intense governmental restrictions. I know
they don't set up new sites often, but they have done so since I've
been soaring.

Frank Whiteley

On Dec 28, 10:24 am, Shawn wrote:
toad wrote:
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Maybe soaring will see an upside to the real estate bubble pop. With
the glut of foreclosures, demand for land to build subdivisions is
probably right around zero. Then again with the value of corn, farmers
may start buying up subdivisions and "plowing them under". ;-)

Shawn

If/when cellulosic biofuel production becomes main stream, it may
become somewhat more expensive to complete with switch grass for
suitable land. Widespread cultivation of switch grass might also
impact available land out areas in areas where corn is not already
grown as it's irrigation requirements are substantially less. The
upside is that it's energy return is several times that of corn
ethanol production. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switchgrass
http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/mis...s-profile.html

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

Frank,

I think the Wenatechee ridge site is still there, but am not aware if
it is still being used.

The area I am talking about is in the town of Monroe WA and the valley
land is all pasture and flood plain, so there will never be any
development there. Do you remember a few months agao all tha flood
coverage in WA state? well, the Skykomish valley and the Carnation
valley were covered quite a bit in the news......these are 2 prime
"valley floor" areas that are at the base of the long ridge I am
referring too. I suppose you could google earth up the area and see
the topo view of the place. I think it has great promise. There are
acres of flat valley land that might be attractive for a farmer to
lease out to a local soaring group.

Perfect place for a winch already, and if the land on top could be
made into some kind of flying park; for gliders, hang gliders and
paragliders, we could prepare a really nice facility. Years ago there
were 2 great places to hang glide in that area. I still hold a few
local records from those sites.

Another thing that I find attractive is using SLA aircraft with super
quiet and efficient engines towing up lightweight sailplanes. This
combination might assuage the local populations fears about noise.

I hope our club will investigate these options and locations.

Brad

Hey Tony,

Yup...........this get-together at ABQ s going to be really fun. I
look forward to meeting you and Matt and everyone else.

Since I am a composites guy my put will be towards a composite ship. I
have seen the Hart aircraft and you're right, they are at the other
end of the spectrum, but are still valid contributors to soaring.

The wisdom being shared via this thread is really
exciting...................Soaring into the Future indeed!

Brad

Our club operates a winch from a public airport. The
FOB manager is very supportive. It takes some planning.
It requires you to discuss with your club and discuss
directly with the FOB manager. Prepare a presentation
(BTW nothing fancy), prepare a written agreement, discuss
safety, operations, and the airports revenue sharing
amount. This is a critical step as most FOB managers
must report the activity to the city/county airport
board. The BGA has emmense experience and offer a lot
of documentation to assist you. USE IT. Back up what
you tell the FOB. Bring in some experienced winch operators
for your first weekend. It works.

I was thinking about the bait switch today and how
that works. I laughed when I thought about a reverse
way to use it. One of our students had been training
on aero tow. Paying about $30/tow. He was only doing
2-3 tows every couple of weeks. You could see he was
on the edge of losing interest. Our winch operations
came along at just the right time. We only charge $10/waunch.
This student took 3 waunches the first day and 9 waunches
the next. He was so hooked he then ran for a club officer
position. He exclaimed '9 flights for the price of
3'. WOW.
So have a new student pay for 3 aero tows for $90,
then introduce them to 9 waunches for the same price.
And guess what, they also get 3 times the practice.

If you want a copy of our presentation and other materials,
drop me a line.


SAM


At 16:42 28 December 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:

'toad' wrote in message
.
com...
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think
the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt
that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would
allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with
aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the
US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated
an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the
northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that
has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several
million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive
compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Todd, I think you overstate the situation.

I have asked three airport managers about winch launch
and the response was
'bring it on'. It seems almost universal that glider
pilots assume winch
operations would be turned down so they don't actually
ask. Ask in a
reasonable way and you may be surprised at the answer.

Managers of small airports that have traditionally
served small, single
engine airplanes have seen the number of operations
at their airports drop
dramatically as the price of 100LL avgas has soared.
(Many predict 100LL
will become non-existant within the next three years.)
That drop in
operations has them worried about their jobs which,
to a degree, depends on
public demand for airport services.

Against this background, a proposal that would bring
100's of operations per
day, even if they are gliders, can look pretty good,
particularly if those
operations don't generate noise complaints.

Work up an reasonable winch operations plan with lots
of information about
other successful operations and present it. Can't
hurt.

Bill Daniels
p.s. I you want help, e-mail me.