Cost of operating a Skyhawk

I believe the total costs would be considered operating costs because if the owner didn't invest in the
aircraft to start with how could it be operated at all?

You can believe that if you want to, Jim, but if you wrote that on an
exam in Economics 101, you would get an F.

vince norris

Jim Carter
wrote in message
...
...
And you would be wrong.

From 14 CFR 61.113 (c)

...provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expeditures, or
rental fees.

As a US private pilot, you can't "share" the cost of such things as engine
overhauls, home based tie down fees, insurance, normal maintenance, etc.

...
--
Jim Pennino


And "airport expenditures" would be? I interpret that to mean any
expenditure I make to maintain the aircraft at the airport in an airworthy
condition. Admittedly, "airport expenditures" is rather abstract and might
go either way, but until it is more properly defined mighten it also cover
maintenance, hanger or tie down, and any other expense at the airport for
the aircraft? The CFR doesn't specifically say landing fee, or parking fee,
but it could have.

Please understand, I'm not advocating any fees or charges here. What I am
saying is that it should be up to the owner to decide what the hourly rate
is that the passenger would be splitting, not the passenger. That was the
whole point of my post and I believe I even said so in a previous note.

Jim Carter wrote:
Jim Carter
wrote in message
...
...
And you would be wrong.

From 14 CFR 61.113 (c)

...provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expeditures, or
rental fees.

As a US private pilot, you can't "share" the cost of such things as engine
overhauls, home based tie down fees, insurance, normal maintenance, etc.

...
--
Jim Pennino


And "airport expenditures" would be? I interpret that to mean any
expenditure I make to maintain the aircraft at the airport in an airworthy
condition. Admittedly, "airport expenditures" is rather abstract and might
go either way, but until it is more properly defined mighten it also cover
maintenance, hanger or tie down, and any other expense at the airport for
the aircraft? The CFR doesn't specifically say landing fee, or parking fee,
but it could have.

Please understand, I'm not advocating any fees or charges here. What I am
saying is that it should be up to the owner to decide what the hourly rate
is that the passenger would be splitting, not the passenger. That was the
whole point of my post and I believe I even said so in a previous note.

AOPA has numerous articles on the subject at
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/to...1-part135.html

From one of them:

Passengers on a flight with a pilot who was already planning to take the
trip for his own purposes can contribute equally with the pilot to the
direct operating costs of the flight. This includes the gas and oil used,
the landing fee, and the rental cost if the pilot does not own the aircraft.
Passengers may not contribute to the pilot's indirect expenses incurred
because of the flight, such as the airplane's annual inspection, oil changes,
or hangar rental. "These are rules that are broken daily by pilots and
passengers who do not realize that they are in violation," said Kathy Minner,
an AOPA aviation technical specialist. "Some pilots go their whole lives not
knowing, or call us after someone ? perhaps an FAA official ? raises the
question to them."

Sounds like they are describing you.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

Jim Carter wrote:

And "airport expenditures" would be?

The ramp fees and landing fees associated with that flight.

I interpret that to mean any
expenditure I make to maintain the aircraft at the airport in an airworthy
condition.

And you would lose your certificate at the first hearing if violated.

Admittedly, "airport expenditures" is rather abstract and might
go either way, but until it is more properly defined mighten it also cover
maintenance, hanger or tie down, and any other expense at the airport for
the aircraft? The CFR doesn't specifically say landing fee, or parking fee,
but it could have.

The CFR says "operating expenses of a flight". That is not abstract and cannot "go
either way", especially in an FAA hearing.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

Mr. Norris was the passenger on this trip, and it was he who had written
that he wouldn't pay anything except direct costs.

That's your (mis)interpretation. The fact is, my friend asked me to
fly with him instead of taking my own airplane because his intended
fellow-pilot can't go. I was the one who said I would go but with the
understanding I would pay half the full operating costs. On a previous
long cross country when I flew my own airplane, he asked his passenger
to pay only half of the gas. I wouldhn't have felt right paying only
that much.

The bottom line is under US regs you can't legally do this under 14 CFR 61.

vince norris

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
Mr. Norris was the passenger on this trip, and it was he who had
written
that he wouldn't pay anything except direct costs.

That's your (mis)interpretation. The fact is, my friend asked me to
fly with him instead of taking my own airplane because his intended
fellow-pilot can't go. I was the one who said I would go but with the
understanding I would pay half the full operating costs. On a previous
long cross country when I flew my own airplane, he asked his passenger
to pay only half of the gas. I wouldhn't have felt right paying only
that much.

The bottom line is under US regs you can't legally do this under 14 CFR
61.

vince norris

Well, sir, if it's appreciating like a Skylane you will only need to buy in
on the avgas.

To the below operating costs-.........double or triple those figures if you
licence and fly your plane in Canada!


wrote in message
news:H0u2d.8226$MS1.2892@trnddc02...

On 16-Sep-2004, vincent p. norris wrote:

It depends primarily on number of hours flown per year, but given that
value
it's not too tough to calculate.

DIRECT OPERATING COST:
Figure 8 gal fuel/hr @ $3.00/gal = $24/hr
Figure $16000 for engine overhaul, 2000 hr TBO = $8/hr
Figure usage related maintenance = maybe $2/hr (assuming you do your own
oil
changes)
TOTAL DIRECT OPERATNG COSTS = $34/hr

FIXED COSTS:
Tiedown/hangar, could be anywhere from free to $500/mo. Lets say tiedown
at
$100/mo = $1200/yr
Insurance will depend upon pilot experience and hull value. Let's say
$800/yr
Annual inspection and other maintenance: When we had a 172 I think it
averaged around $1600/yr. (including avionics).
TOTAL FIXED COSTS = $3600/yr

If the plane is flown a typical 150 hrs/yr, fixed costs as estimated above
come in at $24/hr, so total operating cost per hour would be $34 + $24 =
$58. But if you only fly 50 hrs/yr the hourly cost is a whopping $96.

Note that this analysis does not include depreciation (or appreciation) or
costs for periodic painting and interior upgrades, or interest charges on
a
loan, if applicable. YMMV.


--
-Elliott Drucker

Pretty close. Usage related maintenance is more than $2 an hour. More
like $10, or $15 if you have an IFR panel to support. Tires, brakes,
light bulbs (landing lights, nav lights, strobes, interior lighting),
battery and gyros all give out. Then there are the occasional starter,
alternator, magnetos and nose wheel shimmy things, vacuum pump and
radio repair. This list is not exhaustive either. Maintenance is the
one recurring item that is difficult to predict.

wrote in message news:H0u2d.8226$MS1.2892@trnddc02...
On 16-Sep-2004, vincent p. norris wrote:

Can anyone who owns a Cessna 172 tell me approximately what it costs
per hour to operate--fuel, oil, normal maintenance, engine overhaul
fund?


It depends primarily on number of hours flown per year, but given that value
it's not too tough to calculate.

DIRECT OPERATING COST:
Figure 8 gal fuel/hr @ $3.00/gal = $24/hr
Figure $16000 for engine overhaul, 2000 hr TBO = $8/hr
Figure usage related maintenance = maybe $2/hr (assuming you do your own oil
changes)
TOTAL DIRECT OPERATNG COSTS = $34/hr

FIXED COSTS:
Tiedown/hangar, could be anywhere from free to $500/mo. Lets say tiedown at
$100/mo = $1200/yr
Insurance will depend upon pilot experience and hull value. Let's say
$800/yr
Annual inspection and other maintenance: When we had a 172 I think it
averaged around $1600/yr. (including avionics).
TOTAL FIXED COSTS = $3600/yr

If the plane is flown a typical 150 hrs/yr, fixed costs as estimated above
come in at $24/hr, so total operating cost per hour would be $34 + $24 =
$58. But if you only fly 50 hrs/yr the hourly cost is a whopping $96.

Note that this analysis does not include depreciation (or appreciation) or
costs for periodic painting and interior upgrades, or interest charges on a
loan, if applicable. YMMV.