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#21
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Night flying times
Carl Orton wrote:
You mean like this one?: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/aa_pap.pl You actually need to start he http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html -- John T http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415 Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com ____________________ |
#22
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Night flying times
Dave Butler writes:
Stubby wrote: There is no need for a pilot to actual own a GPS. He can look at a friend's or one at the FBO, etc. But for the price of an hour of instruction, anyone can purchase his very own GPS. Or, the FAA could put up a web page with GPS sunrise and sunset times on it. AFAIK there is no generally agreed upon "GPS sunrise". I'm guessing each GPS manufacture has its own proprietary algorithm for determining sunrise/sunset. That's fine for casual use, but I imagine regulation writers are looking for something more standard. And does "rise" mean the first little bit's visible, the full face is visible, or somewhere in between? |
#23
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Night flying times
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:09:18 GMT, Jose wrote:
I think the combination of this sort of problem, along with the fact that the wording in the regulations is outdated, speaks for a more general solution. Outdated? In what way is it "outdated" (was good then but things have changed"?) The regulation requires reference to a publication which is out of print. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#24
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Night flying times
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:40:20 GMT, Matt Whiting wrote:
Ron Rosenfeld wrote: On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:13:07 GMT, Jose wrote: 2. If the purpose of night flying regulations is to require the currency of special skills when it is "dark", then the times should be adjusted to reflect local topography. For example, ridges and mountains may cause darkness to be present earlier than the official sunset time. I think this is one of those places where judgement comes into play. We're not talking about much of a temporal difference. Jose Well, there are legal, practical and safety issues also. On 29 March 2001 there was a fatal accident involving a Gulfstream at Aspen. They were executing an approach that was not authorized "at night". "Official" sunset occurred 33 minutes prior to the accident, so "official" night would have occurred 3 minutes prior to the accident. However, according to the NTSB calculations, the sun would have set below the mountainous terrain about 25 minutes BEFORE official sunset time; and the shadow for the ridge immediately to the west of the accident site would have crossed the site 79 minutes earlier than official sunset. Among the NTSB conclusions was "that the aeronautical definition of “night” does not adequately describe the conditions under which darkness exists in mountainous terrain and, therefore, use of this term may not adequately restrict potentially hazardous flight operations". The NTSB recommended revisions in this regulatory area, to adequately address these issues. The trouble is that you can NEVER write enough regulations to alleviate poor judgement. Matt In view of the fact that it gets real dark at some airports well before official "night", do you think that the regulations regarding night currency are adequate? Do you think that someone who is not night current should be allowed to carry passengers VFR into ASE 45 minutes after "sunset" the way it is currently defined in the regulations? Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#25
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Night flying times
In view of the fact that it gets real dark at some airports well before
official "night", do you think that the regulations regarding night currency are adequate? Do you think that someone who is not night current should be allowed to carry passengers VFR into ASE 45 minutes after "sunset" the way it is currently defined in the regulations? What is legal isn't always safe. Pilots are called upon all the time to excercise judgement. I think the night currency regulations give sufficient hints to pilots that this is an area where judgement might be called for. PILOTS are the ones that ensure safe flights, not rules. Jose -- He who laughs, lasts. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#26
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Night flying times
Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:40:20 GMT, Matt Whiting wrote: Ron Rosenfeld wrote: On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:13:07 GMT, Jose wrote: 2. If the purpose of night flying regulations is to require the currency of special skills when it is "dark", then the times should be adjusted to reflect local topography. For example, ridges and mountains may cause darkness to be present earlier than the official sunset time. I think this is one of those places where judgement comes into play. We're not talking about much of a temporal difference. Jose Well, there are legal, practical and safety issues also. On 29 March 2001 there was a fatal accident involving a Gulfstream at Aspen. They were executing an approach that was not authorized "at night". "Official" sunset occurred 33 minutes prior to the accident, so "official" night would have occurred 3 minutes prior to the accident. However, according to the NTSB calculations, the sun would have set below the mountainous terrain about 25 minutes BEFORE official sunset time; and the shadow for the ridge immediately to the west of the accident site would have crossed the site 79 minutes earlier than official sunset. Among the NTSB conclusions was "that the aeronautical definition of “night” does not adequately describe the conditions under which darkness exists in mountainous terrain and, therefore, use of this term may not adequately restrict potentially hazardous flight operations". The NTSB recommended revisions in this regulatory area, to adequately address these issues. The trouble is that you can NEVER write enough regulations to alleviate poor judgement. Matt In view of the fact that it gets real dark at some airports well before official "night", do you think that the regulations regarding night currency are adequate? Do you think that someone who is not night current should be allowed to carry passengers VFR into ASE 45 minutes after "sunset" the way it is currently defined in the regulations? I'm not familiar with ASE so I can't comment. However, that is my point. There are a zillion variations and special cases and you simply can't write enough regs to cover them all, and if you could, nobody could ever learn them all! Matt |
#27
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Night flying times
Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On 8 Nov 2005 05:50:19 -0800, "Andrew Sarangan" wrote: What's wrong with saying "as published in the American Air Almanac"? 1. The American Air Almanac is out of print. It is not available on amazon.com although it may be available elsewhere. However, it has certainly not been updated in recent years. Feh. I know it's hard to believe, but there are some things which exist but you can't order from Amazon :-) You can get current (2005 or 2006) editions of the Air Almanac directly from the US GPO or UK Stationary Office, or from several commercial suppliers, in print or on CD. See http://aa.usno.navy.mil/publications/docs/ord_info.html for ordering details. If you're worried about the change in title from "American Air Almanac" to "Air Almanac" (reflecting the fact that it is now published jointly by the US Naval Observatory and the Her Majesty's Nautical Almanac Office), you're obsessing over details even the FAA would have trouble considering significant. |
#28
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Night flying times
On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 22:40:53 +0000 (UTC), (Roy Smith) wrote:
you're obsessing over details even the FAA would have trouble considering significant. I'm in good company with the NTSB also writing that regulations and/or guidance in this area is lacking. However, obsessing over details is a well documented feature of this NG :-)) Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
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