A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Military Aviation
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

more radial fans like fw190?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old August 20th 04, 06:26 AM
Geoffrey Sinclair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The Enlightenment wrote in message ...

I think the FW 190 installation was well studied. It was excellent. A few
of the Typhoon/Tempest dervatives also used Germanic style radiators a'la
FW190D series and also achieved a speed improvement.


The Typhoon always used the chin radiator. It first flew about
9 months after the Fw190

The Typhoon "derivative", the Tempest used wing radiators in the
mark I, the fastest, a radial engine in the mark II, a chin radiator
in the mark V and a combination of chin and wing radiators for the
mark VI.

The Fury, the Tempest "derivative" used a radial engine.
Hawkers had a good look at the FW190 before the Fury
was designed.

Nothing like the radiator arrangement used in the FW190D series.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.


  #12  
Old August 20th 04, 06:31 AM
Geoffrey Sinclair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The Enlightenment wrote in message ...

The 801 had a innovations such as a multipoint direct in cylinder injection
of the fuel and completely automatic control of mixture and boost. The
pilot only had a throttle to opperate. It's installation in the 190 was
excellent: the engine was tightly cowled to improve aerodynamics with
airflow being provided by a geared fan opperating at about 3:1 to provide
cooling. The exhausts were beautifully installed and provided an ejector
effect to induce cooling and thrust. I believe that only one Soviet fighter
is regarded to have achieved this level of perfection. Around the cowl was a
circular oil tank that was armoured and thus protected the cylinder heads.
It was thus a very tough battle damage resistent engine that provided the
pilot with a massive piece of armour when going in head on against an
american bombers 50s.


The trouble is the initial trials were very bad thanks to engine
over heating, at one point this threatened to have the entire
program cancelled. It also seems the engineers in JG26
did most of the work in coming up with a good fix.

Note the oil tank in radials was often armoured, since the oil
also acted as a coolant, and a bullet through the oil tank was
almost as bad as a bullet through the radiator of an inline engine.

The much loved US Gruman Bearcat for instance was inspired and the P47 was
built specifically to deal with the 190.


The design brief for the Bearcat was heavily into fast climb, to
intercept the incoming strikes, using the advances in ship's radar
to quickly intercept hostiles. It was the response of the USN to
carrier warfare in the Pacific not the FW190.

The P-47B was ordered in September 1940 and first flew on
6 May 1941. This was before the RAF encountered the FW190
on 27 September 1941 and over a year before one was captured,
in July 1942. The first production P-47B was in December
1941. Rather hard to see the P-47 as built specifically unless
the US was given all the information in 1940, and knew despite
the major engine cooling problems the FW190A had that the
program would be continued.

Also note the P-47B was optimised to fight above 20,000 feet,
the FW190A below 20,000 feet.

It's weakness was that its performance dropped of at altitude. The answer
to this was the BMW801T which was turbo supercharged version. Focke-Wulf
built some 190s with the turbo supercharger built into the belly as a bulge
(unlike the P47 it wouldn't fit in the compact fueselage) but they did not
persue the idea perhaps it was inelegant and the turbo metals were in short
supply for such as massively produced aircraft.


The FW190B was the pressure cabin version of the FW190A, with
the BMW801D-2, and a longer span wing, giving around 20% more
wing area, this was not turbo supercharged.

The FW190C used the DB600 series engines in various combinations,
with the turbo supercharger, when fitted, being in a ventral housing, the
so called Kangaruh or Kangaroo look. Longer span wings and pressure
cabins were also fitted.

About 600 of these engines
with a very neat intercooler installation ended up on the Ju388L high
altitude reconaisence bomber where they were very neatly installed with the
intercooler as 5 segments behind the engine. (The Ju388 also had a night
fighter version built to deal with B29s attacking at night)


The Ju388L was in production for around 6 months in 1944, with
around 10 converted from Ju188 and 60 built new. Those 600
engines must have had a very short lifetime if all they did was power
the Ju388L. The night fighter version appears to be more prototypes
than production.

(The Ju 388 seems to have had the same type of periscopic sighting system as
used on the A26 invader only it had twin 13.1mm MG in a remote tail turret)

However Fock-Wulf decided to install water cooled V12s into the Fw 190 to
get high altitude performance. The 432 mph Fw 190D9 had a jumo 213A
enigine but the Fw190D11 and Fw190D12 (only 70 entered service) had a Jumo
213E engine with the same two stage intercooler arrangement as the Merlin in
the Mustang and could manage 460mph.


Be careful here, the later versions of the D series are mainly paper
projects or prototypes. And the WWII engines used a water glycol
cooling mixture, rather like many modern motor vehicles, hence
liquid cooled, not water cooled.

The D-10 replaced the fuselage machine guns with a 30mm cannon
firing through the propeller spinner. Couple of prototypes

The D-11 was a D-9 with the Jumo213F with MW-50, several prototypes
built.

The D-12 was the ground attack version, the D-10 armament, with
an armoured installation of the Jumo 213F, production began in
March 1945. It is doubtful any actually entered service. Fw190A/D
production in March 1945 is said to be 204, and zero in April.

The D-13 with the Jumo213EB and 2 20 mm cannon, 2 prototypes
built.

The D-14 with the DB603A engine, 2 built.

The D-15 with the DB603EB engine, paper project.

Oddly for such an engine seems to have
been heavily armoured for ground attack and torpedo bombing (they were used
by the Soviets after the war for this) Apparently the annular radiators of
the German V12s were quite battle damage tollerant as well as aerodynanic.


It seems unlikely the designers would put lots of high altitude
features into a ground attack version.

The same type of engine jumo 213E with more performance ended up in the
475mph TA 152 H0 and TA 152H1 (H-1 had wet fuel tanks in its wooden wings
for greater range) as this had very large wings it could not only fly
extremely high it could out turn any Allied fighter.


The Ta152H-1 had an empty weight of around 8,900 pounds supported
by a wing area of 251 square feet, The Spitfire XIV had an empty weight
of around 6,600 pounds and wing area of 242 square feet. I doubt the
TA152H with its long wings would win a turning contest with a Spitfire
XIV except at very high altitudes.

Most sources rate the Ta152H series top speed in the 460 to 470mph
range, the using MW-50 and GM-1. What is the source that claims the
wings were wooden as opposed to metal?

You can tell a Fw 190D9 from a Fw 190D11/D12/D13 by the latter lacking cowl
guns and having an oval air intage instead of round and using a cannon
firing through the propeller boss. One of these (The Fw 190 D13 I think)
was to end up with a long barreled Mk 103 30mm cannon as a tank buster. It
was this aircraft that I guess would have finaly replaced the Stuka.



The D-12 would be the replacement for the G model.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.


  #13  
Old August 20th 04, 11:45 AM
Cub Driver
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:35:38 +0300, "Jukka O. Kauppinen"
wrote:

Cross licensed were not that uncommon,


Japan's major transport planes during WWII were license-built DC-2s,
DC-3s, and Lockheed Electras.

If you've ever seen the combat footage of the Japanese airborne assult
on the Dutch oilfields in the Indies (Indonesia), the planes they are
jumping from are "Type LO" Electras, built I think by Kawasaki.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com
  #14  
Old August 20th 04, 11:55 AM
Cub Driver
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


The much loved US Gruman Bearcat for instance was inspired and the P47 was
built specifically to deal with the 190.


I would say that the Bearcat was inspired by the Hellcat, which was
inspired by the Wildcat. As for the P-47, it was an outgrowth of the
P-43 which was an outgrowth of the P-35.

The XP-47 was ordered in 1939, and the XP-47B with a PW 2800 engine in
January 1940. Did the USAAC even know about the FW-190 in January
1940?

I would say that the two American fighters were sui generis: The
Bigger the Better.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com
  #15  
Old August 20th 04, 01:10 PM
The Enlightenment
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message
...
The Enlightenment wrote in message

...

I think the FW 190 installation was well studied. It was excellent. A

few
of the Typhoon/Tempest dervatives also used Germanic style radiators a'la
FW190D series and also achieved a speed improvement.


The Typhoon always used the chin radiator. It first flew about
9 months after the Fw190

The Typhoon "derivative", the Tempest used wing radiators in the
mark I, the fastest, a radial engine in the mark II, a chin radiator
in the mark V and a combination of chin and wing radiators for the
mark VI.

The Fury, the Tempest "derivative" used a radial engine.
Hawkers had a good look at the FW190 before the Fury
was designed.

Nothing like the radiator arrangement used in the FW190D series.


After the war Tempests were built, flown and tested with Germanic anular
radiators. This gave about a 20mph speed advantage over the chin
installation with the same sabre engine.



Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.




  #16  
Old August 20th 04, 01:32 PM
The Enlightenment
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

The much loved US Gruman Bearcat for instance was inspired and the P47

was
built specifically to deal with the 190.


I would say that the Bearcat was inspired by the Hellcat, which was
inspired by the Wildcat. As for the P-47, it was an outgrowth of the
P-43 which was an outgrowth of the P-35.


The designers of the Bearcat flew to england and inspected (and flew) a
captured FW190 and they were inspired by the concept of a small aircraft
with a high power to weight ratio and were inspired to do better. Bearcat
was a break with the Hellcat concept it was small and powerfull.

Watched it on televison and the designers actualy related the story
themsleves. Can't remember what program now.



The XP-47 was ordered in 1939, and the XP-47B with a PW 2800 engine in
January 1940. Did the USAAC even know about the FW-190 in January
1940?

I would say that the two American fighters were sui generis: The
Bigger the Better.


There was some influence of the FW 190 on the P47. Perhaps I am thinking of
the P47D. Untill the P47 got water injection a FW190 could outrun it at
low altitude.




all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum
www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com



  #17  
Old August 20th 04, 02:02 PM
Greg Hennessy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:55:50 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:


The XP-47 was ordered in 1939, and the XP-47B with a PW 2800 engine in
January 1940. Did the USAAC even know about the FW-190 in January
1940?


I'd consider that unlikely, but facts like that have never stopped our nazi
loving BS merchant here.

I would say that the two American fighters were sui generis: The
Bigger the Better.


I once read an article where the XP-72 was described as something which
would have given AS Yakovlev a massive coronary.



greg

--
Es ist mein Teil - nein
Mein Teil - nein
Denn das ist mein Teil - nein
Mein Teil - nein
  #18  
Old August 20th 04, 02:06 PM
Mailman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The Enlightenment wrote:
After the war Tempests were built, flown and tested with Germanic anular


Not to pick too many nits, but would you mind dropping the silly "Germanic"?
Hint: it is NOT the same as "German" - actually quite different.
--
Mailman


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
  #19  
Old August 20th 04, 02:22 PM
Keith Willshaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...

"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message
...
The Enlightenment wrote in message

...

I think the FW 190 installation was well studied. It was excellent.

A
few
of the Typhoon/Tempest dervatives also used Germanic style radiators

a'la
FW190D series and also achieved a speed improvement.


The Typhoon always used the chin radiator. It first flew about
9 months after the Fw190

The Typhoon "derivative", the Tempest used wing radiators in the
mark I, the fastest, a radial engine in the mark II, a chin radiator
in the mark V and a combination of chin and wing radiators for the
mark VI.

The Fury, the Tempest "derivative" used a radial engine.
Hawkers had a good look at the FW190 before the Fury
was designed.

Nothing like the radiator arrangement used in the FW190D series.


After the war Tempests were built, flown and tested with Germanic anular
radiators. This gave about a 20mph speed advantage over the chin
installation with the same sabre engine.



As I recall Napier's designed and tested several different types of annular
radiator annular radiator for the Sabre and tested it on a Typhoon IB
and a Tempest V

None were chosen for production.

Keith




----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
  #20  
Old August 20th 04, 04:43 PM
frank may
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'm pretty sure there's aphoto in one of Wm. Green's books showing a
test version of the Typhoon using an annular radiator.


"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ...
The Enlightenment wrote in message ...

I think the FW 190 installation was well studied. It was excellent. A few
of the Typhoon/Tempest dervatives also used Germanic style radiators a'la
FW190D series and also achieved a speed improvement.


The Typhoon always used the chin radiator. It first flew about
9 months after the Fw190

The Typhoon "derivative", the Tempest used wing radiators in the
mark I, the fastest, a radial engine in the mark II, a chin radiator
in the mark V and a combination of chin and wing radiators for the
mark VI.

The Fury, the Tempest "derivative" used a radial engine.
Hawkers had a good look at the FW190 before the Fury
was designed.

Nothing like the radiator arrangement used in the FW190D series.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wanted 5-cylinder B-75 Lawrence radial Chris Wertman Home Built 5 April 8th 10 02:11 AM
Help ! SMALL Radial engine Chris Wertman Home Built 12 July 18th 05 02:46 PM
Lead Radial Question Stan Prevost Instrument Flight Rules 4 November 25th 04 07:20 PM
World War Two Era U.S. Radial Engines (Curtiss and Pratt&Whitney) Lincoln Brown Military Aviation 10 February 13th 04 05:30 AM
Help ! SMALL Radial engine Chris Wertman Military Aviation 11 January 4th 04 09:22 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.