IDAHO FATALITY

On Sep 7, 10:01*am, wrote:

I'm going out on a limb here and somebody out there will get the saw
out.
A stall does not happen without some warning.
The important element in training is understanding the warning signs.
I teach 6 signs and require all pilots I oversee to be able to
verbalize and demonstrate them.
#1- Reduced control effectiveness sensed by lower resistance to forces
applied by the pilot and reduced response of the glider.
#2- Nose high attitude. Yes we can stall at any attitude, but nose
high is almost always there in critical stalls.
#3- Reduced cockpit noise- Less noticable in modern gliders but still
evident.
#4- Stick pressure is back and likely significant- Exception is aft CG
or improperly trimmed glider.
#5- Low indicated air speed
#6- Buffet indicating flow separation preceding a stall.
It is worth noting that pilots previously trained in airplanes will
commonly mention #6 first , but almost none have been trained on the
other warnings.
I also note that the majority of pilots I check that have been trained
by others have a few (maybe a half dozen or so) log book entries
noting stalls. This, in my view, is completely inadequate. Recognition
and response must be automatic and instinctive, and this needs much
more emphasis and practice.
Off soap box
UH

Yep.

Guess the "others" weren't using Joy of Soaring. Oh, well. It's all
there on page 18. [is that an axe being ground I hear in the
background?] [mutter, mutter, "coffee table book", mutter, mutter]

Every pilot, *especially* every sailplane pilot needs to *be* a sharp,
reliable stall warning device. I honestly don't understand how anyone
can get as far as a Silver C without getting pretty good at this.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Sep 7, 6:54*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 9/7/2011 1:52 PM, jcarlyle wrote:







Mike, I was waiting for UH to answer your primary concern. Now that he
has, am I correct in reading into your original question that this was
the first time you've seen someone present the six signs of an
impending stall?

-John

On Sep 7, 2:08 pm, Mike
wrote:
I think you need to be careful on how this is presented to students.
Many will interpret this to mean that all of these symptoms need to be
present during a stall.

In particular, the nose high attitude is not always there, particularly
in the type of stalls we see during landings. *This is real obvious if
you start getting a little slow while thermalling. *You can feel the
stall come on with the mushy controls and eventually the inside wing
starts to drop, but the nose isn't at any unusual attitude.

--
Mike Schumann

Why would you assume that? *My point is that not each of these signs is
always present when you enter a stall. *When you teach stall recognition
to students, they need to be able to sense the stall coming on
regardless of the aircraft attitude and other factors.

--
Mike Schumann

Mike: Why are you trying to school guys who have been *instructing*
over thirty years longer than you've had your A badge?

-T8

When you're taking exception with a CFIG by saying "I think you need
to be careful on how this is presented to students", it sounds like
you think either (a) he’s inexperienced or (b) he's talking about
something new and you don't believe he's thought this "new" concept
through very carefully. Since most US glider pilots know UH is well
seasoned as an instructor, it sounded to me like you'd never heard of
the six signs of an impending stall.

-John

On Sep 7, 6:54 pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 9/7/2011 1:52 PM, jcarlyle wrote:

Mike, I was waiting for UH to answer your primary concern. Now that he
has, am I correct in reading into your original question that this was
the first time you've seen someone present the six signs of an
impending stall?

-John

On Sep 7, 2:08 pm, Mike
wrote:
I think you need to be careful on how this is presented to students.
Many will interpret this to mean that all of these symptoms need to be
present during a stall.

In particular, the nose high attitude is not always there, particularly
in the type of stalls we see during landings. This is real obvious if
you start getting a little slow while thermalling. You can feel the
stall come on with the mushy controls and eventually the inside wing
starts to drop, but the nose isn't at any unusual attitude.

--
Mike Schumann

Why would you assume that? My point is that not each of these signs is
always present when you enter a stall. When you teach stall recognition
to students, they need to be able to sense the stall coming on
regardless of the aircraft attitude and other factors.

--
Mike Schumann

On Aug 22, 2:47*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:

I think a "open spoiler on tow" is a great idea, and I've had one for
several years, as do some other people. If you have a Cambridge 302
vario, it's easy to add one, especially if it's already used for your
gear warning.


Is that a configuration option on the 302? I have the gear warning
but don't recall a dive brake warning menu item. If it's not
available on the 302 how do you get an electronic airspeed input?

9B

On Sep 7, 7:22*pm, jcarlyle wrote:
When you're taking exception with a CFIG by saying "I think you need
to be careful on how this is presented to students", it sounds like
you think either (a) he’s inexperienced or (b) he's talking about
something new and you don't believe he's thought this "new" concept
through very carefully. Since most US glider pilots know UH is well
seasoned as an instructor, it sounded to me like you'd never heard of
the six signs of an impending stall.

-John

On Sep 7, 6:54 pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:







On 9/7/2011 1:52 PM, jcarlyle wrote:

Mike, I was waiting for UH to answer your primary concern. Now that he
has, am I correct in reading into your original question that this was
the first time you've seen someone present the six signs of an
impending stall?

-John

On Sep 7, 2:08 pm, Mike
wrote:
I think you need to be careful on how this is presented to students.
Many will interpret this to mean that all of these symptoms need to be
present during a stall.

In particular, the nose high attitude is not always there, particularly
in the type of stalls we see during landings. *This is real obvious if
you start getting a little slow while thermalling. *You can feel the
stall come on with the mushy controls and eventually the inside wing
starts to drop, but the nose isn't at any unusual attitude.

--
Mike Schumann

Why would you assume that? *My point is that not each of these signs is
always present when you enter a stall. *When you teach stall recognition
to students, they need to be able to sense the stall coming on
regardless of the aircraft attitude and other factors.

--
Mike Schumann

Mnemonic devices are great for pre and post flight scenarios, armchair
discussions and other venues when there is time available to
regurgitate said items................if I had to recite the 6 steps
of an impending stall I might get to number 3 before I planted myself
into the ground.

Brad

On 9/7/11 9:38 PM, Andy wrote:
On Aug 22, 2:47 pm, Eric wrote:

I think a "open spoiler on tow" is a great idea, and I've had one for
several years, as do some other people. If you have a Cambridge 302
vario, it's easy to add one, especially if it's already used for your
gear warning.


Is that a configuration option on the 302? I have the gear warning
but don't recall a dive brake warning menu item. If it's not
available on the 302 how do you get an electronic airspeed input?

9B

It is a standard feature of the Cambridge 302. Details are hidden away
in the C302 manual in a section deviously titled "The Airbrake and
Landing Gear Warning Switches" :-)

But you are throwing all this out for an LX9000 and presumably LX varios....

Darryl

On Sep 7, 7:01*am, wrote:
On Sep 6, 3:35*pm, Ramy wrote:









On Sep 6, 8:11*am, Jim White wrote:

I have changed the subject as we are well passed Idaho now.

I am having trouble with this stall warning stuff. I fly modern gliders:
ASW27, Duo Discus, ASK21 etc. All give clear warnings ahead of a stall.
When they do stall the nose drops, stick forward a bit, dada...stall
recovered. If they were to start into a spin (and the 21 shouldn't with
normal C of G positions), stick forward a bit, maybe a bit of pedal, and
dada...recovered.
None would lose significant amounts of height if recovered straight away.

I compete in the 27 and regularly fly it in thermals near the stall. You
feel for the break in laminar flow on the wings. This actually happens well
before the stall. It would be impossible to climb effectively if the stick
kept shaking!

And what would happen in a fully held off landing? I would also be a bit
****ed if the shaker went off when I was landing as slow as possible into a
very tight field in a light head wind!

This has to be about training and currency in gliders. We are not flying
747s with passengers down the back.

Final turns should be made at a sensible height with sufficient speed and
well banked so that they cannot be ruddered into a spin. This all should be
natural and obvious to a well trained pilot. No need for another mechanical
gadget to go wrong.

At 13:00 06 September 2011, kirk.stant wrote:

Modern gliders give very little indications of a stall (another reason
why training in old clunkers like the 2-33 is counterproductive). *Add
a little distraction or a higher priority task (Bee in the cockpit!)
and you can be in a high-AOA situation without being aware of it. *Add
to that a pilot who flies infrequently, and the benefit of a stall
warning system becomes even more clear.

Kirk
66- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is the point that puzzles me the most. I am sure that many of us
had never accidentally stalled/spinned a glider even in rough
thermals, due to the ample warnings. Incipient spin is the closest to
accidental spin I ever got, and this is only when grossly skidding in
rough thermal at safe altitude. Yet the majority of glider accidents
are attributed to stall/spin, and usually very experienced pilots, and
if my assumption above is correct, it was probably their first
accidental stall/spin. Which leads me to conclude that those stall/
spin happened without warning from one reason or another.
I think it will be very helpful to hear stories from pilots who
survived a stall/spin accident, and why they think it happened.
Anyone on RAS who survived such an accident care to share their story?

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm going out on a limb here and somebody out there will get the saw
out.
A stall does not happen without some warning.
The important element in training is understanding the warning signs.
I teach 6 signs and require all pilots I oversee to be able to
verbalize and demonstrate them.
#1- Reduced control effectiveness sensed by lower resistance to forces
applied by the pilot and reduced response of the glider.
#2- Nose high attitude. Yes we can stall at any attitude, but nose
high is almost always there in critical stalls.
#3- Reduced cockpit noise- Less noticable in modern gliders but still
evident.
#4- Stick pressure is back and likely significant- Exception is aft CG
or improperly trimmed glider.
#5- Low indicated air speed
#6- Buffet indicating flow separation preceding a stall.
It is worth noting that pilots previously trained in airplanes will
commonly mention #6 first , but almost none have been trained on the
other warnings.
I also note that the majority of pilots I check that have been trained
by others have a few (maybe a half dozen or so) log book entries
noting stalls. This, in my view, is completely inadequate. Recognition
and response must be automatic and instinctive, and this needs much
more emphasis and practice.
Off soap box
UH

What's the instructor's view on spin training?

I spin my ASW-27 every couple of years - in multiple configurations,
both directions, always at a generous altitude and never with ballast
or a c.g. too far aft. I practice spin recognition and recovery and
note the altitude consumed in each case. My philosophy is that if you
know what a spin entry feels like you are more likely to be able to
stop it before or very shortly after it starts.

9B

It's not a mnemonic, Brad, it's for recognition and awareness
training. You can't defeat the enemy unless you know his tricks. I'll
let others explain it better, since I'm not an instructor.

-John

On Sep 8, 12:50 am, Brad wrote:
Mnemonic devices are great for pre and post flight scenarios, armchair
discussions and other venues when there is time available to
regurgitate said items................if I had to recite the 6 steps
of an impending stall I might get to number 3 before I planted myself
into the ground.

Brad

On Sep 7, 7:22 pm, jcarlyle wrote:
When you're taking exception with a CFIG by saying "I think you need
to be careful on how this is presented to students", it sounds like
you think either (a) he’s inexperienced or (b) he's talking about
something new and you don't believe he's thought this "new" concept
through very carefully. Since most US glider pilots know UH is well
seasoned as an instructor, it sounded to me like you'd never heard of
the six signs of an impending stall.

-John

On Sep 8, 12:51*am, Andy wrote:
On Sep 7, 7:01*am, wrote:





On Sep 6, 3:35*pm, Ramy wrote:

On Sep 6, 8:11*am, Jim White wrote:

I have changed the subject as we are well passed Idaho now.

I am having trouble with this stall warning stuff. I fly modern gliders:
ASW27, Duo Discus, ASK21 etc. All give clear warnings ahead of a stall.
When they do stall the nose drops, stick forward a bit, dada...stall
recovered. If they were to start into a spin (and the 21 shouldn't with
normal C of G positions), stick forward a bit, maybe a bit of pedal, and
dada...recovered.
None would lose significant amounts of height if recovered straight away.

I compete in the 27 and regularly fly it in thermals near the stall.. You
feel for the break in laminar flow on the wings. This actually happens well
before the stall. It would be impossible to climb effectively if the stick
kept shaking!

And what would happen in a fully held off landing? I would also be a bit
****ed if the shaker went off when I was landing as slow as possible into a
very tight field in a light head wind!

This has to be about training and currency in gliders. We are not flying
747s with passengers down the back.

Final turns should be made at a sensible height with sufficient speed and
well banked so that they cannot be ruddered into a spin. This all should be
natural and obvious to a well trained pilot. No need for another mechanical
gadget to go wrong.

At 13:00 06 September 2011, kirk.stant wrote:

Modern gliders give very little indications of a stall (another reason
why training in old clunkers like the 2-33 is counterproductive). *Add
a little distraction or a higher priority task (Bee in the cockpit!)
and you can be in a high-AOA situation without being aware of it. *Add
to that a pilot who flies infrequently, and the benefit of a stall
warning system becomes even more clear.

Kirk
66- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is the point that puzzles me the most. I am sure that many of us
had never accidentally stalled/spinned a glider even in rough
thermals, due to the ample warnings. Incipient spin is the closest to
accidental spin I ever got, and this is only when grossly skidding in
rough thermal at safe altitude. Yet the majority of glider accidents
are attributed to stall/spin, and usually very experienced pilots, and
if my assumption above is correct, it was probably their first
accidental stall/spin. Which leads me to conclude that those stall/
spin happened without warning from one reason or another.
I think it will be very helpful to hear stories from pilots who
survived a stall/spin accident, and why they think it happened.
Anyone on RAS who survived such an accident care to share their story?

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm going out on a limb here and somebody out there will get the saw
out.
A stall does not happen without some warning.
The important element in training is understanding the warning signs.
I teach 6 signs and require all pilots I oversee to be able to
verbalize and demonstrate them.
#1- Reduced control effectiveness sensed by lower resistance to forces
applied by the pilot and reduced response of the glider.
#2- Nose high attitude. Yes we can stall at any attitude, but nose
high is almost always there in critical stalls.
#3- Reduced cockpit noise- Less noticable in modern gliders but still
evident.
#4- Stick pressure is back and likely significant- Exception is aft CG
or improperly trimmed glider.
#5- Low indicated air speed
#6- Buffet indicating flow separation preceding a stall.
It is worth noting that pilots previously trained in airplanes will
commonly mention #6 first , but almost none have been trained on the
other warnings.
I also note that the majority of pilots I check that have been trained
by others have a few (maybe a half dozen or so) log book entries
noting stalls. This, in my view, is completely inadequate. Recognition
and response must be automatic and instinctive, and this needs much
more emphasis and practice.
Off soap box
UH

What's the instructor's view on spin training?

I spin my ASW-27 every couple of years - in multiple configurations,
both directions, always at a generous altitude and never with ballast
or a c.g. too far aft. I practice spin recognition and recovery and
note the altitude consumed in each case. My philosophy is that if you
know what a spin entry feels like you are more likely to be able to
stop it before or very shortly after it starts.

9B- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I violently agree!
UH

I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it
be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the
pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on.