IDAHO FATALITY

On Sep 8, 10:16*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
Maybe the stall warning should actually measure the stall.

A small hole (static sized) on the top skin of the wing, back half,
would indicate a sharp drop in pressure when separation starts ahead
of it, along with characteristc turbulence. Connect it to a pressure
transducer, run wires down the wing to a plug that automatically makes
contact on assembly, and you have a stall warning that measures
exactly that -- stalls.

It would account automatically for water ballast, spoilers, flaps,
landing gear, rain, bugs, and all the other things that make airspeed
or even angle of attack based approaches fail.

It would be useful in a thermal -- you actually don't want to thermal
at the edge of a stall, where separation is already starting. You want
to thermal 1-2 knots more than that. So the ``stall warning'' going
off would be useful feedback "you're thermaling inefficiently" as well
as a last ditch attempt to wake up a distracted pilot in trouble.

And, while I'm dreaming, it should have voice! The famous last words
are always "there was some damn buzzer going off and I was too busy to
figure out how to shut it up." Vario sinking, landing gear warning,
sua airspace warnings, mylar peeling, all make too much the same
sounds.

John Cochrane.

It might not have to be on the wing. Ever notice vario's in the
ASK-21's with the tail boom mounted TE probe suddenly go to an erratic
down indication as the flow over the wing root separates?

On Sep 8, 7:19*am, wrote:
On Sep 8, 9:32*am, Mike wrote:

I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it
be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the
pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on.

The first thing that fails is use of the check list, especially under
stress.
UH

Precisely!

At 18:12 08 September 2011, Ramy wrote:
On Sep 8, 7:19=A0am, wrote:
On Sep 8, 9:32=A0am, Mike wrote:

I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could
it
be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the
pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on.

The first thing that fails is use of the check list, especially under
stress.
UH

Precisely!

Why the complication? (1) Stick shakers and pushers were fitted to aircraft
which presented little or no warning of an approaching stall or the stall
itself. I have yet to fly a glider which does not give a clear indication
of an approaching stall or an even clearer indication that the stall has
occurred and my training made sure I could recognise these indications and
take the necessary action.
(2) Fitting yet another gizzmo that requires electricity throws up the same
problem as there is with all electric items in a glider, the power
available is reliant on an unrenewable source, the battery. When the
battery goes flat all the gizzmos fail. When this happens Bloggs with of
course say, "I could not have stalled, the stall warning did not go off"
I glider does not need such a gizzmo, and if there are pilots flying
gliders who feel that such an instrument is needed perhaps we would all be
better served if they took up golf or gardening.

On 9/8/2011 11:12 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:

BTW - I personally think stall warning devices are vastly overrated,
....and the opinion that *gasp* instructors are any
better pilots than us mere mortals. ....

You are correct, but I've never heard anyone say that instructors are
better pilots. IMHO, the difference is that instructors see far more
piloting errors than you - and see patterns in those errors.

Tony

DG 808 stall warning videos

http://www.youtube.com/user/DT38000#p/a/u/0/hLLpCK_F7Cg
http://www.youtube.com/user/DT38000#p/a/u/1/PWJdjBpfvEw
http://www.youtube.com/user/DT38000#p/a/u/2/R5GBzhYEUHw

On Sep 8, 2:12*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Sep 8, 7:19*am, wrote:

On Sep 8, 9:32*am, Mike wrote:

I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it
be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the
pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on.

The first thing that fails is use of the check list, especially under
stress.
UH

Precisely!

Outside of rope breaks, how much stress should a pilot be under when
he makes the decision to land? I wonder how many stall/spin/spiral
dive accidents started out with a relatively normal "I have to land
soon/now" thought. But O.K., leave it turned on all the time or turn
it on as a part of the pre-takeoff list (you don't want the buzzing
while you're just sitting there waiting your turn). I'm not saying its
a magic bullet, just one more layer of protection and that there are
solutions to the false alarm issue.

On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 11:01:40 -0700 (PDT), Bill D
wrote:


It might not have to be on the wing. Ever notice vario's in the
ASK-21's with the tail boom mounted TE probe suddenly go to an erratic
down indication as the flow over the wing root separates?

Yup - this is a phantastic training device to teach student pilots
about AOA (let them compare the AOA during a winch launch to the AOA
in free flight).


Andreas

On Sep 9, 9:34*am, Mike wrote:
On Sep 8, 2:12*pm, Ramy wrote:

On Sep 8, 7:19*am, wrote:

On Sep 8, 9:32*am, Mike wrote:

I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could it
be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the
pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on..

The first thing that fails is use of the check list, especially under
stress.
UH

Precisely!

Outside of rope breaks, how much stress should a pilot be under when
he makes the decision to land? I wonder how many stall/spin/spiral
dive accidents started out with a relatively normal "I have to land
soon/now" thought. But O.K., leave it turned on all the time or turn
it on as a part of the pre-takeoff list (you don't want the buzzing
while you're just sitting there waiting your turn). I'm not saying its
a magic bullet, just one more layer of protection and that there are
solutions to the false alarm issue.

The first field landing may well be one of the most stressful events
in the life of a glider pilot.
Even simulating it, some folks are shaking a LOT after it's over,
especially if I've convinced them we
really are landing in a field.
In the real world, many(most?) wait way too long to commit to landing
and that makes it much worse.
UH

Good answer. Frankly, I don't stop flying at the end of the season as some
do. I've been called dumb for "wasting" a tow when there's no lift, but I
just love to fly and challenge myself with spot landings (touchdown point)
or stopping at a predetermined location (simulating a fence). I guess that
translates to recent experience. I also tow year round.

I wish there was a winch or auto tow available locally. It's quite fun (as
the Europeans know!) and makes landing practice cheap.


"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message
...
"Dan Marotta" wrote:

"Mike" wrote in message
...
I'm a bit surprised with all the "false alarm" talk. How hard could
it
be to turn the device on with a simple toggle switch as part of the
pre-landing checklist? Take-off and thermalling - off, landing - on.

Good idea, but why have a switch for the pilot to forget to operate?
Why not simply arm/disarm the system via a micro switch on the landing
gear? Fixed gear - put the micro switch on the spoilers.

Bzzzzzztttt (sorry that was my r.a.s. bad idea alarm going off. I
normally have to keep it turned off to but...). This idea probably would
not help the fatal crash that started this thread. For fatal stall/spins
turning base/final I expect the spoilers to be closed in most cases. And
we have pilots who forget to put the gear down. I suspect there is some
correlation with not putting the gear down and being harried/behind the
aircraft to start with and therefore maybe more needing of a stall
warning device. It would also be bad to have an alarm sound the moment
the spoiler is pulled or gear goes down--these often happen close to the
ground and at critical times that could distract the pilot. Does the
pilot who gets an alarm on lowering the gear or popping the spoilers
then lower the nose or close the spoilers/raise the gear to stop the
silencing alarm or sit there confused for a few seconds wondering why
they have an alarm for gear up when they just put it down. Remember the
pilot that matters here is already behind the aircraft/confused and may
not react correctly

I am not opposed to the idea of stall warming devices but they have to
be on all the time and need to have a low false alarm/annoyance rate and
be affordable/installable. Again I would love to hear experiences from
folks flying with the currently available stall warning devices. For all
I know might already have usable systems out there...

BTW - I personally think stall warning devices are vastly overrated,
likewise mnemonics, and the opinion that *gasp* instructors are any
better pilots than us mere mortals. They simply took the steps to add
another rating. I've also wondered why folks say we should fly with
an instructor at the beginning of the season because we're "rusty".
What about the instructor? How come he's not rusty? And, yes, I've
known some mighty fine and capable instructors. Likewise, I've known
some that I wouldn't fly with.

(Flame suit on)

Well clearly on average that instructor has done many flights recently
before your spring refresher flight with them. In many places they teach
all winter. On some places instructors will check each other out and/or
make sure they have flown themselves early in the season.

If you cannot find an instructor who you want to fly with at the start
of a season or at other times who can help improve your flying skills,
brush you up on emergency procedures or just get a critique of your
flying skill then you are either an amazing pilot or are not looking
around very hard to find some of the great instructors out there.

Darryl

On Sep 9, 8:47*am, "Dan Marotta" wrote:

I wish there was a winch or auto tow available locally. *It's quite fun (as
the Europeans know!) and makes landing practice cheap.


This thread really is getting way too long, but you know what else
makes practice cheap? A flight simulator! Something good, like
Condor, is not a "magic bullet" solution; and every training aid has
its strengths and weaknesses... But for the cost of a few tows you
can get the software, a joystick, and a "head-tracker" (so that you
can "look around" with your head and eyes - which is important for
pattern work). The gear will last many years and can be used any time
of the day or night, without regard to weather. You can go in with a
few people - or have your club buy one copy for the clubhouse - to
make the cost even lower. You can use it to practice thermalling,
landing, cross-country decision-making, and all manner of other items
(for example: Including myself I now know at least 3 pilots who have
done VERY well in their first SSA contests, and attribute at least
some of their success to flying tasks in Condor).

I've only been soaring for 5 years now and I make plenty of my own
goof-ups... But time and time again I see people more experienced
than me make easy/stupid mistakes because they are not current, or
they have an attitude that they're so experienced that they don't need
to practice. But RECENCY of experience is just as important as total
experience, IMHO. Anyone who's flown will agree that piloting skills
are really prone to getting "rusty" when they're not used. Studies
have proven, for example, that student pilots learn much faster and do
much better when they have training multiple times a week (versus once
every week or two).

If you haven't performed a skill in a long time, you may be just as
susceptible to missing a step or reacting poorly as a student pilot.
And flying recently does not mean that you are equally practiced at
everything. A CFIG who's flown a lot may be dynamite in the pattern,
but horrible at mountain-flying. Conversely, a cross-country pilot
may be way better at thermalling than the CFIG; yet have trouble with
the landing pattern or emergency procedures. In order to keep a skill
fresh, you have to actually _practice_ it in a purposeful way. You
can integrate this practice into your normal flying (i.e. you don't
need to buy some sled rides and just do these maneuvers one at a
time), but you have to be deliberate and purposeful in attempting the
skills and honestly evaluating your results.

In short: I vehemently believe that neither gadgets nor past
instruction can make up for lack of recent experience and purposeful
practice. And in our sport we have a lot of people who do not
participant on a frequent or regular basis; thus putting a large
portion of our population in a higher risk bracket.

--Noel
P.S. Unlike some of the folks here - I'm an IT professional by day;
so when I argue against extra gadgets in the cockpit you can be
assured that I'm not just being pedantic (no offense, guys)!