Dennis Wright - Cross Country Pilot

Hi, I wonder then if we need to review the Silver distance?

When I went solo in Cyprus in 1971 in my trusty T21, it would have been
relatively
easy to do a 50k. The thermals were/are so good my 10th solo flight was to
7000' and nearly 3 hours (shorts and tee shirt in an open cockpit - great!)

The same task in the UK with cloud base 2 to 3000 feet lower, and much
weaker thermals is a different job all together!

So what do we say, glide angle below 1:30 = 50k, 1:40 = 75k,
1:40 = 150k ?

And add 50% for distances in hot countries with BIG thermals?

Malcolm...


"Alistair Wright" wrote in message
...

"Robin Birch" wrote in message
...
In message , Alistair
Wright writes
Congrats to Dennis for earning his badge in the way the original founders
of
gliding intended. Though long retired from the sport I can well
understand
how Dennis must feel. I did my five hours in smoky thermals over
Stoke-on-Trent (UK), my height off a very low launch at Sutton Bank in
Yorkshire both of those in an old wooden Olympia 2. Distance was in a
Ka8
from Dunstable. It took fourteen years all told because I was
instructing
within a year of going solo and could never get into a single seater. In
my
view all sports are going the same way -- high performance equipment
being
used against the old low performance goals. I guess the Silver distance
should be at least 150Km to level the playing field.

Or done in a T31 :-)

Robin

That's a bit harsh! I did know a guy who did it in a T21b though. The
cross country was always the challenge in the UK in the 60s -- there were
some quite competent aircraft around but most of us did not own or get to
fly them. I scored the 1971 Nationals at Husbands Bosworth and setting a
300k O/R was a big deal -- and only a few got round. Plastic hadn't been
invented and everybody flew wooden ships. We got a lot of outlanding
practice in those days.

Alistair Wright

Silver Distance is the most difficult leg to achieve regardless of
what is being flown. The actual flying is relatively simple. The real
achievement is making the commitment to leave the comfort of the home
field and start off into the unknown. A no wind 50k in a Discus is a
one thermal and one long glide flight but the pilot still has to
believe it will work. There are plenty of pilots who have high
performance gliders and never venture out more then 5 miles from home
and admit they don't have the confidence to fly x/c. As cross country
pilots, think about what you take for granted now that seemed like
complete magic when you began flying sailplanes. This list is what the
pre-silver distance pilot is concerned about and then some. Any pilot
who achieves silver distance deserves great praise and should not
considered a cheater because they used a Nimbus 4 and not a primary.
Style should be last on the list and carry no weight when evaluating
this achievment. Berating a pilot who flies a high performance ship to
make this flight is doing nothing but supporting the idea that glider
pilots are snobs and this attitude only hurts our sport which is
trying to grow. Kevin

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:51:45 GMT, Kevin Brooker
wrote:

Silver Distance is the most difficult leg to achieve regardless of
what is being flown. The actual flying is relatively simple. The real
achievement is making the commitment to leave the comfort of the home
field and start off into the unknown. A no wind 50k in a Discus is a
one thermal and one long glide flight but the pilot still has to
believe it will work. There are plenty of pilots who have high
performance gliders and never venture out more then 5 miles from home
and admit they don't have the confidence to fly x/c. As cross country
pilots, think about what you take for granted now that seemed like
complete magic when you began flying sailplanes. This list is what the
pre-silver distance pilot is concerned about and then some. Any pilot
who achieves silver distance deserves great praise and should not
considered a cheater because they used a Nimbus 4 and not a primary.
Style should be last on the list and carry no weight when evaluating
this achievment. Berating a pilot who flies a high performance ship to
make this flight is doing nothing but supporting the idea that glider
pilots are snobs and this attitude only hurts our sport which is
trying to grow. Kevin


Very well put. I agree completely.

"JC" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:51:45 GMT, Kevin Brooker
wrote:

Silver Distance is the most difficult leg to achieve regardless of
what is being flown. The actual flying is relatively simple. The real
achievement is making the commitment to leave the comfort of the home
field and start off into the unknown. A no wind 50k in a Discus is a
one thermal and one long glide flight but the pilot still has to
believe it will work. There are plenty of pilots who have high
performance gliders and never venture out more then 5 miles from home
and admit they don't have the confidence to fly x/c. As cross country
pilots, think about what you take for granted now that seemed like
complete magic when you began flying sailplanes. This list is what the
pre-silver distance pilot is concerned about and then some. Any pilot
who achieves silver distance deserves great praise and should not
considered a cheater because they used a Nimbus 4 and not a primary.
Style should be last on the list and carry no weight when evaluating
this achievment. Berating a pilot who flies a high performance ship to
make this flight is doing nothing but supporting the idea that glider
pilots are snobs and this attitude only hurts our sport which is
trying to grow. Kevin


Very well put. I agree completely.

Well I agree partly. The bit about cutting the apron strings is well put.
However a good club CFI will take pilots who are near Silver up in a two
seater and take them well away from the club just to get them used to the
risk of not getting back. It is the fear of out landing which seems to be
uppermost in many pilot's minds. I actually landed out by mistake on my last
field landing check for Silver distance. I got my log book signed and then
was grounded for two weeks!! I think I then had at least four attempts at
Silver Distance, all falling short, but involving a field landing -- I
actually enjoyed the sensation of landing neatly in a strange farmer's
field.

However I cannot accept a one thermal Discus trip as being equivalent to my
Silver in an wooden Ka8. Looking at the trace of my distance flight I see I
used seven thermals and got horribly low at one point which greatly
concentrated my mind! Now, I had to find these thermals in places I had
never seen. Local soaring with passengers at our club on a good day was
like running a bus service, as I knew exactly where to find the lift and it
seldom failed. No; I think the idea of grading the distance in accordance
with the published polar for the machine being flown has a lot of merit. I
don't think this is a 'snobbish' attitude. The playing field ought to be
level, or at least as level as we can make it.

Alistair Wright

"Alistair Wright" wrote in message
...

"JC" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:51:45 GMT, Kevin Brooker
wrote:

Silver Distance is the most difficult leg to achieve regardless of
what is being flown. The actual flying is relatively simple. The real
achievement is making the commitment to leave the comfort of the home
field and start off into the unknown. A no wind 50k in a Discus is a
one thermal and one long glide flight but the pilot still has to
believe it will work. There are plenty of pilots who have high
performance gliders and never venture out more then 5 miles from home
and admit they don't have the confidence to fly x/c. As cross country
pilots, think about what you take for granted now that seemed like
complete magic when you began flying sailplanes. This list is what the
pre-silver distance pilot is concerned about and then some. Any pilot
who achieves silver distance deserves great praise and should not
considered a cheater because they used a Nimbus 4 and not a primary.
Style should be last on the list and carry no weight when evaluating
this achievment. Berating a pilot who flies a high performance ship to
make this flight is doing nothing but supporting the idea that glider
pilots are snobs and this attitude only hurts our sport which is
trying to grow. Kevin


Very well put. I agree completely.

Well I agree partly. The bit about cutting the apron strings is well put.
However a good club CFI will take pilots who are near Silver up in a two
seater and take them well away from the club just to get them used to the
risk of not getting back. It is the fear of out landing which seems to be
uppermost in many pilot's minds. I actually landed out by mistake on my
last
field landing check for Silver distance. I got my log book signed and
then
was grounded for two weeks!! I think I then had at least four attempts at
Silver Distance, all falling short, but involving a field landing -- I
actually enjoyed the sensation of landing neatly in a strange farmer's
field.

However I cannot accept a one thermal Discus trip as being equivalent to
my
Silver in an wooden Ka8. Looking at the trace of my distance flight I see
I
used seven thermals and got horribly low at one point which greatly
concentrated my mind! Now, I had to find these thermals in places I had
never seen. Local soaring with passengers at our club on a good day was
like running a bus service, as I knew exactly where to find the lift and
it
seldom failed. No; I think the idea of grading the distance in accordance
with the published polar for the machine being flown has a lot of merit.
I
don't think this is a 'snobbish' attitude. The playing field ought to be
level, or at least as level as we can make it.

Alistair Wright



I tend to agree that the 50km Silver Distance task is out of date. Those
who did it under poor soaring conditions in low performance gliders deserve
the bragging rights. Nonetheless, one's first real XC is a nail biter
regardless of the glider or conditions.

Silver Distance isn't just about soaring the distance, it's also about
navigation. High performance gliders combined with strong thermals can get
a pilot lost a lot faster than an old wood floater.

I seem to remember a story about a pilot who, after getting thoroughly lost,
landed 300km away after failing to identify his 50km goal.

Bill Daniels

Well I agree partly. The bit about cutting the apron strings is well put.

This was the point I was trying to make in my post. 50k is far enough
away that it takes some psyching up for. Most pilots who stick with
the sport fly x/c. Why not encourage participation and give these
pilots a goal they can achieve? Leaving on a cross country flight is
so much easier after we make the first one or two. Are we also
supposed to handicap the altitude gain by wing loading? I'll agree
that a pilot making a flight in a lower performance glider most likely
worked a bit more and quite possibly had a richer learning experiance
but does this reduce the achievement of letting go and heading out? No
way.




However I cannot accept a one thermal Discus trip as being equivalent to
my
Silver in an wooden Ka8.
I never said it was. I believe the flight is more about leaving then
covering 50k.


I tend to agree that the 50km Silver Distance task is out of date. Those
who did it under poor soaring conditions in low performance gliders deserve
the bragging rights.

There are pilots who earned Silver distrance when the 1-26 or 1-23 was
the hot ship equivilant to the Discus. Did these types of bragging
rights take place then? How many of us were flying the latest hot ship
when we finished the leg? Is our accomplishment any less valid then
the pilot who made the flight in 15 year older equipment?


Silver Distance isn't just about soaring the distance, it's also about
navigation. High performance gliders combined with strong thermals can get
a pilot lost a lot faster than an old wood floater.

I seem to remember a story about a pilot who, after getting thoroughly lost,
landed 300km away after failing to identify his 50km goal.

Cool. Did he claim a Gold flight?

Bill Daniels

"Kevin Brooker" wrote in message
...
I seem to remember a story about a pilot who, after getting thoroughly
lost,
landed 300km away after failing to identify his 50km goal.

Cool. Did he claim a Gold flight?

Yep.

Bill Daniels

"Robin Birch" wrote
Or done in a T31 :-)

Sure. You offering to lend me yours, Robin? I promise not to scratch
that lovely silver paint-work

--
Bill Gribble
http://www.scapegoatsanon.demon.co.uk
- Learn from the mistakes of others.
- You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:kdSdncLVZoeII3rfRVn-

I seem to remember a story about a pilot who, after getting thoroughly
lost,
landed 300km away after failing to identify his 50km goal.

Bill Daniels

Ha, ha. One of my syndicate partners (Oly2b) went C/C on a very windy day
from Meir (S-o-T) and managed to tear his map badly en route. He flew on
for a bit and thought he recognised a building below him. He took out his
packet of ciggies (we were always trying to stop him smoking in the glider)
and saw that the packet (Capstan) had a picture of this building on the
back. It was Nottingham Castle! Plenty far enough for Silver, so he landed
in a public park nearby. When we arrived with the trailer he was still
arguing with the park keeper as to whether or not any byelaws had been
broken! This guy became a 'park' landing specialist and did it again in
Stoke. He left the glider in the care of the parkie and carrying his 'chute
and barograph returned to the Club by bus! It was quicker than phoning the
clubhouse.

I have to admit to my shame that I generally had no exact idea of where I
was when I landed out. the question 'Am I near.....' always allowed me to
say 'Of course! I thought that was where I was....' when my actual location
was revealed.

Alistair Wright

I did all my silver in a TG-3, about 40 years ago.
I tried the Gold Distance downwind in a Ka-8 about
5 years later and got about 170 miles downwind, all
in North Carolina while I was in grad school. Last
month I tried again, in a Discus in Moriarty, with
flight computer, moving map GPS, etc., and finally
did a 300k declared triangle. I consider the Ka-8
flight much more noteworthy - just a compass, watch,
and a sectional.

At 13:56 28 July 2005, Alistair Wright wrote:

'Bill Daniels' wrote in message
news:kdSdncLVZoeII3rfRVn-

I seem to remember a story about a pilot who, after
getting thoroughly
lost,
landed 300km away after failing to identify his 50km
goal.

Bill Daniels

Ha, ha. One of my syndicate partners (Oly2b) went C/C
on a very windy day
from Meir (S-o-T) and managed to tear his map badly
en route. He flew on
for a bit and thought he recognised a building below
him. He took out his
packet of ciggies (we were always trying to stop him
smoking in the glider)
and saw that the packet (Capstan) had a picture of
this building on the
back. It was Nottingham Castle! Plenty far enough
for Silver, so he landed
in a public park nearby. When we arrived with the
trailer he was still
arguing with the park keeper as to whether or not any
byelaws had been
broken! This guy became a 'park' landing specialist
and did it again in
Stoke. He left the glider in the care of the parkie
and carrying his 'chute
and barograph returned to the Club by bus! It was
quicker than phoning the
clubhouse.

I have to admit to my shame that I generally had no
exact idea of where I
was when I landed out. the question 'Am I near.....'
always allowed me to
say 'Of course! I thought that was where I was....'
when my actual location
was revealed.

Alistair Wright