Puchaz spin - now wearing 'chutes

In article ,
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dave Houlton wrote:
This parachute discussion has me thinking about the rocket-deployed
chutes we used to have for hang gliding, and the BRS systems now in
Cirrus (Cirrii?) and small Cessnas. Probably no improvement w.r.t
weight or cost considerations, but for convenience, comfort, and "always
there when you need it" they would seem ideal. I don't actually know
the repack requirements, but I would guess they're annually or even longer.

Are there any gliders out there today with whole-ship BRS-type chutes?

Some of the Russia AC-4 gliders in the US are equipped with them, and
the SparrowHawk has it available as a $2200 option. At least one
SparrowHawk has it installed. Neither the Russia nor the SparrowHawk
people have tested the BRS in a glider yet.

From reading the saves on
http://brsparachutes.com/PI_saves.mgi

I'd say glider construction is so well done compared to
some ultralights that we are unlikely to see a glider
use for some time...

In article ,
Ian MacArthur wrote:
Just wondering...

Do Americans wear parachutes whilst flying in competitions?

I believe the chutes aren't just worn in competitions
(regional and national), but they are required for sanction
of the contest.

Is this true? I don't have references...

Bill Daniels wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote
My understanding is the "whole glider" German rescue systems will lower
the glider nose down at about 40 degrees or so. If it is more level, it
is likely to oscillate wildly so much the descent and impact can't be
controlled. So, the landing gear is irrelevant, but the cockpit
structure is extremely important. The nose must absorb the "landing".

A Nimbus 2 might be a poor candidate for installing a system that won't
be tested, except when you really need it. Your safety might be better
served by selling the Nimbus and buying newer glider with a more crash
tolerant cockpit. At least in the US, crashing while landing (meaning
the last 100' of altitude) still claims more pilots than unsuccessful
bailouts.

To summarize the thread so far:

The BRS requires a reinforced cockpit to absorb the non-trivial landing
impact forces. Most accidents involve premature termination of tow or
landing errors where a BRS 'chute wouldn't help anyway. Or perhaps,
mid-air collisions at an altitude where a personal 'chute is the equal for a
BRS for survivability.

A BRS is likely to require non-trivial pilot training and discipline in its
operation and maintenance. Injuries should be expected with the used of
either personal or BRS 'chutes.

On the other hand, taking the 'chute off the back of the pilot and putting
it on the glider adds significantly to ergonomics and comfort. The BRS can
be deployed at low altitudes where a pilot with a personal 'chute is
unlikely to make a successful egress. This altitude band favoring a BRS
probably expands where the pilot is old or infirm.

Maybe it's something to think about on a new glider but retrofitting an
older glider is problematical. A BRS is perhaps a useful option but not a
panacea. I remain skeptical but open to ideas.

I think that's a good summary. For me, it's not possible because I have
a motor glider. That also excludes about half the German production.

I don't think the on-ground safety aspects are difficult - remember,
these units have been used successfully (BRS lists 159 saves so far) in
ultralight aircraft for many years and they have systems for the Cessna
150, 172, 180, and Cirrus, so it's not like the basic system is new.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message ...
OK, crank these numbers. Consider my Nimbus 2C (Experimental, so I could
install a BRS) at 650 Kilos with water (which takes 5 minutes to dump). The
gear strut will give 30mm on impact and the tire will give 50mm more. The
cockpit shell is just fiberglass with no crush structure.

I pop a BRS at 300 meters AGL with the surface wind at 15 knots. What are
my chances? Give BRS weights, 'chute diameters and descent rates.

Bill Daniels


Hi, Bill. Please don't take what follows in any sort of argumentitive
way. I've played out the scenario you describe in making my decision
to buy the BRS. As I reread it, it sounds harsh, but it certainly
isn't meant harshly...just heart-felt. Thanks for taking it in the
spirit it is intended...Dave answered the primary question you had...a
15 knot collision with the earth is gonna hurt for sure. However let's
put you in your Nimbus, busted...at around 980 feet, plummeting
earthward at...oh, let's just say...80 mph. You need to pull your
ripcord at a minimum of, what, 350 feet? That would be
borderline...I'd rather try it at 500 feet. Ok, you have (117 fps
down) 3-4 seconds to open (jettison) your canopy, unfasten your belts
and get out of and away from your glider and pull the ripcord. Pretty
much half the amount of time it took to read that last sentence out
loud. Do you really think you can? Add the g-forces associated with
any significant damage and just making the decision...If you can, you
are a better man than I.

Put me in the same position in my BRS equipped glider...I need to
reach over my right shoulder and pull...much the same move as your
first move to jettison the canopy...but in a different direction, of
course :-). I am now under canopy. I am hanging nose down (I figure
around 45 degrees or so) I've got (around 22 fps down) 20 seconds
(assuming I wind up under canopy at 500 feet) to get my landing gear
down, tighten my straps, brace and take the impact. The glider hits
nose first (with an impact which is a significant fraction of the
total force...let's call it 75% of the force...so about what I would
get by running into a brick wall at 12 mph), and the rest of the force
is dissipated by the glider rotating down to the landing gear...one
would expect that it would take the rest with minimum loading on my
body.

I'm hurting but alive, most likely. You're dead, most likely. God
forbid either one of us explore this scenario...but I prefer my
chances over the non-BRS equipped glider.

Jim

Are there any gliders out there today with whole-ship BRS-type chutes?

Every SparrowHawk built has been fitted with a BRS. Every customer
has selected this option so far. We expect this to continue. Number
10 will fly in a couple of weeks and will have a BRS.
Regards
Greg Cole

Here is a link that shows Jim's HP-16 BRS installation.
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP...S_in_HP-16.htm

The HP-16's stub box spar across the fuselage is ideal for a BRS
application.

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder


"Jim Harper" wrote in message
om...
"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
...
OK, crank these numbers. Consider my Nimbus 2C (Experimental, so I
could
install a BRS) at 650 Kilos with water (which takes 5 minutes to dump).
The
gear strut will give 30mm on impact and the tire will give 50mm more.
The
cockpit shell is just fiberglass with no crush structure.

I pop a BRS at 300 meters AGL with the surface wind at 15 knots. What
are
my chances? Give BRS weights, 'chute diameters and descent rates.

Bill Daniels


Hi, Bill. Please don't take what follows in any sort of argumentitive
way. I've played out the scenario you describe in making my decision
to buy the BRS. As I reread it, it sounds harsh, but it certainly
isn't meant harshly...just heart-felt. Thanks for taking it in the
spirit it is intended...Dave answered the primary question you had...a
15 knot collision with the earth is gonna hurt for sure. However let's
put you in your Nimbus, busted...at around 980 feet, plummeting
earthward at...oh, let's just say...80 mph. You need to pull your
ripcord at a minimum of, what, 350 feet? That would be
borderline...I'd rather try it at 500 feet. Ok, you have (117 fps
down) 3-4 seconds to open (jettison) your canopy, unfasten your belts
and get out of and away from your glider and pull the ripcord. Pretty
much half the amount of time it took to read that last sentence out
loud. Do you really think you can? Add the g-forces associated with
any significant damage and just making the decision...If you can, you
are a better man than I.

Put me in the same position in my BRS equipped glider...I need to
reach over my right shoulder and pull...much the same move as your
first move to jettison the canopy...but in a different direction, of
course :-). I am now under canopy. I am hanging nose down (I figure
around 45 degrees or so) I've got (around 22 fps down) 20 seconds
(assuming I wind up under canopy at 500 feet) to get my landing gear
down, tighten my straps, brace and take the impact. The glider hits
nose first (with an impact which is a significant fraction of the
total force...let's call it 75% of the force...so about what I would
get by running into a brick wall at 12 mph), and the rest of the force
is dissipated by the glider rotating down to the landing gear...one
would expect that it would take the rest with minimum loading on my
body.

I'm hurting but alive, most likely. You're dead, most likely. God
forbid either one of us explore this scenario...but I prefer my
chances over the non-BRS equipped glider.

Jim

In article ,
GMC wrote:

Are there any gliders out there today with whole-ship BRS-type chutes?

Every SparrowHawk built has been fitted with a BRS. Every customer
has selected this option so far. We expect this to continue. Number
10 will fly in a couple of weeks and will have a BRS.
Regards
Greg Cole

Greg Cole!

bows down again and again, "we are not worthy" chanted...etc :-

Outstanding! It seems to make a TON of sense both from
the customer AND manufacturer perspective. I don't want
to take up to much of your time (you SHOULD be in the
shop building a twin-jet Sparrowhawk .


But did you use the 8" or 7" diameter systems? And how did the
weight and balance work out? Is it true you get a
weight increase on the "ultralight" definition from using a
BRS? Older FAA docs seemed to indicate this weight
increase was only for "powered" ultralights. Is the
weight increase 24 pounds, or what?

Great stuff. I hope you sell two dozen more Sparrowhawks
this year. I can't wait to touch one in person...

Dave

Your post struct a note with me. My son is 8 years old and is desperate to
'go gliding with dad'.
I have considered buying a Caproni or Silene ( both side by side two
seaters) to ensure that I could get him out with me and I have investigated
static line triggered chutes ( throw him out knowing it would deploy ) but I
realised whilst reading your post that it has never crossed my mind to fly
without 'chutes. Thinking about it now I might consider it just for a flip
on a quite day with little other traffic but I simply couldn't do it on a
regular basis.

Personally I think the BRS is a good idea.

Ian



"Dave Houlton" wrote in message
...

It does help - thanks, Jim! I'm flying club gliders now, but I expect
I'll eventually be an owner - and based on this discussion I'll quite
likely opt for an experimental. It just makes sense to me that if
you're trying to leave yourself an out for when things go Really Bad,
you want that out to be usable in as many phases of flight as possible -
including low on tow or in the pattern. BRS seems like the only game in
town in those situations.

I never put on a chute at all during training (including full-turn
spins, of course), but I started thinking more about it this fall when I
took my 8-yr-old son for his first glider ride. Along the lines of "I
should grab us some parachutes. But I'm not confident he'd be able to
get out and deploy, and I'm obviously not leaving without him...
Anyway, this is just a pattern tow and a sled ride - we'll never be high
enough to use them anyway." Perfectly reasoned but not very reassuring.

Dave Houlton

just out of interest, how many of those of us who wear
chutes, use a deployment line attached to that odd
looking ring usually found by your left shoulder?

On 12 Feb 2004 08:10:23 GMT, Pete Zeugma
wrote:

just out of interest, how many of those of us who wear
chutes, use a deployment line attached to that odd
looking ring usually found by your left shoulder?

Once. In an ASK-23 at the Wasserkuppe: I believe a 5 m static line is
mandated for German club gliders. Before you ask, I did remember to
take the chute off before walking away from the cockpit.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :