Where are all the glider ads?

I am looking into buying a used single-place glider (38:1) but am having difficulties in finding many ads for them. Soaring Mag used to have many, many pages of glider adverts, but now usually publishes less than a single column. I know about Wings and Wheels and the SSA classifieds, but are there other resources? Are there other active US-based glider forums (I recall there was one at least several years ago)?

Where has our fleet gone to?!

Mike

On Saturday, June 16, 2012 4:51:30 PM UTC-7, Duster wrote:
I am looking into buying a used single-place glider (38:1) but am having difficulties in finding many ads for them. Soaring Mag used to have many, many pages of glider adverts, but now usually publishes less than a single column. I know about Wings and Wheels and the SSA classifieds, but are there other resources? Are there other active US-based glider forums (I recall there was one at least several years ago)?

Where has our fleet gone to?!

Mike

You missed shopping before the season began...

W&W is the place to start.

Darryl

On Saturday, June 16, 2012 6:58:43 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Saturday, June 16, 2012 4:51:30 PM UTC-7, Duster wrote:
I am looking into buying a used single-place glider (38:1) but am having difficulties in finding many ads for them. Soaring Mag used to have many, many pages of glider adverts, but now usually publishes less than a single column. I know about Wings and Wheels and the SSA classifieds, but are there other resources? Are there other active US-based glider forums (I recall there was one at least several years ago)?

Where has our fleet gone to?!

Mike

You missed shopping before the season began...

W&W is the place to start.

Darryl

Checked Wings n Wheels out, and they do have quite a few more than several years ago. I guess the printed word is going out of style faster than I thought. Thanks.

On Saturday, June 16, 2012 5:51:30 PM UTC-6, Duster wrote:
I am looking into buying a used single-place glider (38:1) but am having difficulties in finding many ads for them. Soaring Mag used to have many, many pages of glider adverts, but now usually publishes less than a single column. I know about Wings and Wheels and the SSA classifieds, but are there other resources? Are there other active US-based glider forums (I recall there was one at least several years ago)?

Where has our fleet gone to?!

Mike

Soaring is an international aero sport.

Check also
http://www.sac.ca/index.php?option=c...ager&Itemid=84
http://www.segelflug.de/cgi-bin/clas...lassifieds.cgi
http://adverts.gliderpilot.net/

and occasionally

www.barnstormers.com

Wings & Wheels "Want Ad's"
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/wantads1.htm

"Duster" wrote in message
...
I am looking into buying a used single-place glider (38:1) but am having
difficulties in finding many ads for them. Soaring Mag used to have many,
many pages of glider adverts, but now usually publishes less than a single
column. I know about Wings and Wheels and the SSA classifieds, but are there
other resources? Are there other active US-based glider forums (I recall
there was one at least several years ago)?

Where has our fleet gone to?!

Mike

Hi Mike,

Try www.glidersource.com.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde


"Duster" wrote in message
...
I am looking into buying a used single-place glider (38:1) but am having
difficulties in finding many ads for them. Soaring Mag used to have many,
many pages of glider adverts, but now usually publishes less than a single
column. I know about Wings and Wheels and the SSA classifieds, but are there
other resources? Are there other active US-based glider forums (I recall
there was one at least several years ago)?

Where has our fleet gone to?!

Mike

On Saturday, June 16, 2012 7:51:30 PM UTC-4, Duster wrote:
I am looking into buying a used single-place glider (38:1) but am having difficulties in finding many ads for them. Soaring Mag used to have many, many pages of glider adverts, but now usually publishes less than a single column. I know about Wings and Wheels and the SSA classifieds, but are there other resources? Are there other active US-based glider forums (I recall there was one at least several years ago)?

Where has our fleet gone to?!

Mike

Also try: http://soaringcafe.com/classified-ads/

-Jim

both glidersource.com and soaringcafe (both who BTW receive promotional
links and commercial ads from cumulus) have spammed many who have listed ads
on Wings & Wheels want-ads and soaringcafe has gone as far as copying ads
without the listing advertisers consent and placed these ads on their
website in their effort to create traffic to their website. This is in MHO a
disservice to the soaring public who have all known that there was one good
and up-to-date listing for all involved in soaring to locate buyers and
sellers. Having dozens of websites listing ads, many of which I can promise
are old and outdated, previously sold items there only to add volume to the
listings. This is doing the soaring populous a disservice as eventually ads
become scattered useless hard to find for those who don't have vested
interests in the topics or viewpoints they also wish to promote or
commercial ads to promote their products. Obviously these website are there
to profit from advertisers collecting hits to promote their own websites
commercial value far less than offering a simple source of information free
to those who volunteer their listings.
The Wings & Wheels want-ads have always been completely free and the only
thing I have asked is that buyers and sellers keep their ads current by
notifying me every 90 days that they wish to continue their listing or
sending a notice when their glider or part has been sold or is no longer
available. I will continue this as always but may refuse to carry duplicate
listings for the same reasons mentioned above.
respectfully
Tim Mara

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
...
Hi Mike,

Try www.glidersource.com.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde


"Duster" wrote in message
...
I am looking into buying a used single-place glider (38:1) but am having
difficulties in finding many ads for them. Soaring Mag used to have many,
many pages of glider adverts, but now usually publishes less than a single
column. I know about Wings and Wheels and the SSA classifieds, but are
there
other resources? Are there other active US-based glider forums (I recall
there was one at least several years ago)?

Where has our fleet gone to?!

Mike

Tim,

I thought we in the soaring community could all play nicely together. Apparently not?

Let's begin with your favorite accusation: that I or others associated with GliderSource.com have "spammed many who have listed ads on Wings & Wheels."

1) I am solely responsible for GliderSource.com. Paul Remde of Cumulus Soaring, Inc. is my friend, but has nothing to do with running my site. I have asked you before to leave him out of this. I ask you again. I can't speak for Soaring Cafe nor do I know anything about their operation. We have no association.
The fact that we both "receive promotional links and commercial ads from cumulus" is about as significant as Bill Elliot and myself both using the same toothpaste, and proves nothing other than that Cumulus is a diversified advertiser.

2) In and about September of 2011, I did write to folks who had gliders for sale to inform them of my new website, which offered many nice features (database driven, easy search, unlimited text, 3 large photos, youtube video, instant and total user control, and a long list of other features I won't plug here). I viewed it as common direct email marketing; we all get several a day (if not per hour). Some of those folks advertised on W&W. I only offered it as an ADDITIONAL outlet for their wares. I have never even suggested that they remove their ad from anywhere else. The response I got was consistently along the lines of "thanks, great service".
I received ONE negative reply, reconsidered that strategy, and halted that method (i.e., making anyone angry is not a good strategy). You responded by forbidding your customers to place their ads on my site (without contacting me directly). After seeing several ads disappear, and asking my clients what happened, I found out. I wrote to you and apologized in an email in October 2011. I even offered to help you make your own ad site more functional (easy to find stuff on, etc.). Offer declined.

The purpose of GlideSource.com:
In your words:" Obviously these website are there to profit from advertisers collecting hits to promote their own websites commercial value far less than offering a simple source of information free to those who volunteer their listings."

Baloney! Are you going to try to convince me that W&W Want ads doesn't promote W&W (retail outlet)?
and
"It's obvious they spamming and are doing this since their purpose is to sell advertising to businesses and once they get established with the Want-ads they can make a good "business" out of listing used gliders and charge to run want-ads as well.."

1) You apparently don't know the purpose of my site, which is cleverly hidden on my About page as "an effort to provide a really excellent, well organized and integrated classified ad site for the Worldwide Soaring Community, with functions and capabilities not found in other classified ad sites. " and "GliderSource is all about helping you buy and sell Soaring items, and promote soaring worldwide. " Quite simply, I thought it would be fun and useful, using my programming skills, to build a really great classified ad site for the soaring community with all the best features I could find among other ad sites or just thought up myself (e.g., my Map features). This contrasts with your single photo, single paragraph, manual labor, unsearchable yet heavily trafficked site.

You will also note that I also allow listing any soaring item, not just aircraft, as I'm not trying to sell the very same items in retail environment. There are no potential conflicts of interest.

2)Yes, I do accept donations to help pay for advertising to support the site. My site's gross income from advertising donations for $2011 was five dollars. Soaring cafe and Soaring magazine each cost about $100 per month for ads. This is not a money making operation. But is primarily supported by my own pocket. So, don't make public claims about my intentions, of which you are uninformed. I was told early on that "free ads are part of the culture.."

But even (most/some/all) other aviation sites that do charge for ads, offer a free level that meets or exceeds what you have, and charge for extra goodies which you don't even offer. The market will decide what can be charged or not charged for a service, not you.

Much of the soaring community respects your knowledge, and service. You do have the largest selection of glider/motorglider ads, no question.
The question is: does that entitle you to claim that you should be the ONLY website in the western hemisphere with glider ads? I, obviously, don't think it does. I'm for a competitive marketplace (even among free sites) and innovation to bring the best to the public, and let the free market decide the winner.

You said above: "...the soaring public who have all known that there was one good
and up-to-date listing for all involved in soaring to locate buyers and
sellers." Now there are at least two.

Your stated policy of punishing your own customers for listing their aircraft somewhere else has a lot of folks shaking their heads.

As you wrote on the libellesailplanes yahoo group on January 23, and in numerous emails sent to your own advertisers - (many of whom then forwarded to me in bewilderment): " if your ad is found listed there then it will not be duplicated on, or will be removed from the W&W Want-ads."
I had hoped your policy would soften over the past months, but I can see it has not. Now that you have presented it our most public forum, I cannot remain silent.

Here's what one of my Glidersource.com clients wrote to me when I inquired why he took his ad down so quickly (asking in an effort to better understand my customer):
I was "REQUESTED/REQUIRED to deactivate the ad" [all caps are those of that person], "Tim Mara withheld posting the ad for three days while he tried to buy the glider from me for considerably less than I was asking gave me a funny feeling about that guy. " " I don't have anything personal against the guy - he was just trying to get a good deal. But, I don't think using an ad service to screen for your own good deals is good for a long-term business relationship with consumers."
*[note, while I cannot verify the actual occurrence, these are direct quotes from a single first-hand account.]
This is not the first time I'd heard a similar story.

Not all that altruistic after all?
Of course you claim that W&W want ads is only for the good of soaring community [paraphrase].
But come on, the W&W want ads is closely associated with your retail outlet.. I have no problem with that - you can run it however you like. But don't complain that I allow for a donation, or dare to charge for placement of banner ads when you have a retail store hooked on to your want-ad site and hawk your jet-powered glider dealership on the front page of the want ads! It's a bit duplicitous. I'm not forcing anybody to pay anything. If they want to support my site, that is their (much appreciated) right to do so.

So, once again, but now in public, I will ask you again to play nicely.

Let folks list their gliders wherever they want,in 20 places if they want, without the strong-armed tactics and nasty rhetoric incorrectly badmouthing my intentions.

I wish yours and ALL soaring businesses only the best success (the whole sector needs all the help it can get!) Just don't pee all over my well intentioned effort in the process.

Sincerely,

Bill Palmer
glidersource.com

On Monday, June 18, 2012 9:06:25 AM UTC-5, Bill Palmer wrote:
Tim,

I thought we in the soaring community could all play nicely together. Apparently not?

Let's begin with your favorite accusation: that I or others associated with GliderSource.com have "spammed many who have listed ads on Wings & Wheels."

1) I am solely responsible for GliderSource.com. Paul Remde of Cumulus Soaring, Inc. is my friend, but has nothing to do with running my site. I have asked you before to leave him out of this. I ask you again. I can't speak for Soaring Cafe nor do I know anything about their operation. We have no association.
The fact that we both "receive promotional links and commercial ads from cumulus" is about as significant as Bill Elliot and myself both using the same toothpaste, and proves nothing other than that Cumulus is a diversified advertiser.

2) In and about September of 2011, I did write to folks who had gliders for sale to inform them of my new website, which offered many nice features (database driven, easy search, unlimited text, 3 large photos, youtube video, instant and total user control, and a long list of other features I won't plug here). I viewed it as common direct email marketing; we all get several a day (if not per hour). Some of those folks advertised on W&W. I only offered it as an ADDITIONAL outlet for their wares. I have never even suggested that they remove their ad from anywhere else. The response I got was consistently along the lines of "thanks, great service".
I received ONE negative reply, reconsidered that strategy, and halted that method (i.e., making anyone angry is not a good strategy). You responded by forbidding your customers to place their ads on my site (without contacting me directly). After seeing several ads disappear, and asking my clients what happened, I found out. I wrote to you and apologized in an email in October 2011. I even offered to help you make your own ad site more functional (easy to find stuff on, etc.). Offer declined.

The purpose of GlideSource.com:
In your words:" Obviously these website are there to profit from advertisers collecting hits to promote their own websites commercial value far less than offering a simple source of information free to those who volunteer their listings."

Baloney! Are you going to try to convince me that W&W Want ads doesn't promote W&W (retail outlet)?
and
"It's obvious they spamming and are doing this since their purpose is to sell advertising to businesses and once they get established with the Want-ads they can make a good "business" out of listing used gliders and charge to run want-ads as well.."

1) You apparently don't know the purpose of my site, which is cleverly hidden on my About page as "an effort to provide a really excellent, well organized and integrated classified ad site for the Worldwide Soaring Community, with functions and capabilities not found in other classified ad sites. " and "GliderSource is all about helping you buy and sell Soaring items, and promote soaring worldwide. " Quite simply, I thought it would be fun and useful, using my programming skills, to build a really great classified ad site for the soaring community with all the best features I could find among other ad sites or just thought up myself (e.g., my Map features). This contrasts with your single photo, single paragraph, manual labor, unsearchable yet heavily trafficked site.

You will also note that I also allow listing any soaring item, not just aircraft, as I'm not trying to sell the very same items in retail environment. There are no potential conflicts of interest.

2)Yes, I do accept donations to help pay for advertising to support the site. My site's gross income from advertising donations for $2011 was five dollars. Soaring cafe and Soaring magazine each cost about $100 per month for ads. This is not a money making operation. But is primarily supported by my own pocket. So, don't make public claims about my intentions, of which you are uninformed. I was told early on that "free ads are part of the culture."

But even (most/some/all) other aviation sites that do charge for ads, offer a free level that meets or exceeds what you have, and charge for extra goodies which you don't even offer. The market will decide what can be charged or not charged for a service, not you.

Much of the soaring community respects your knowledge, and service. You do have the largest selection of glider/motorglider ads, no question.
The question is: does that entitle you to claim that you should be the ONLY website in the western hemisphere with glider ads? I, obviously, don't think it does. I'm for a competitive marketplace (even among free sites) and innovation to bring the best to the public, and let the free market decide the winner.

You said above: "...the soaring public who have all known that there was one good
and up-to-date listing for all involved in soaring to locate buyers and
sellers." Now there are at least two.

Your stated policy of punishing your own customers for listing their aircraft somewhere else has a lot of folks shaking their heads.

As you wrote on the libellesailplanes yahoo group on January 23, and in numerous emails sent to your own advertisers - (many of whom then forwarded to me in bewilderment): " if your ad is found listed there then it will not be duplicated on, or will be removed from the W&W Want-ads."
I had hoped your policy would soften over the past months, but I can see it has not. Now that you have presented it our most public forum, I cannot remain silent.

Here's what one of my Glidersource.com clients wrote to me when I inquired why he took his ad down so quickly (asking in an effort to better understand my customer):
I was "REQUESTED/REQUIRED to deactivate the ad" [all caps are those of that person], "Tim Mara withheld posting the ad for three days while he tried to buy the glider from me for considerably less than I was asking gave me a funny feeling about that guy. " " I don't have anything personal against the guy - he was just trying to get a good deal. But, I don't think using an ad service to screen for your own good deals is good for a long-term business relationship with consumers."
*[note, while I cannot verify the actual occurrence, these are direct quotes from a single first-hand account.]
This is not the first time I'd heard a similar story.

Not all that altruistic after all?
Of course you claim that W&W want ads is only for the good of soaring community [paraphrase].
But come on, the W&W want ads is closely associated with your retail outlet. I have no problem with that - you can run it however you like. But don't complain that I allow for a donation, or dare to charge for placement of banner ads when you have a retail store hooked on to your want-ad site and hawk your jet-powered glider dealership on the front page of the want ads! It's a bit duplicitous. I'm not forcing anybody to pay anything. If they want to support my site, that is their (much appreciated) right to do so.

So, once again, but now in public, I will ask you again to play nicely.

Let folks list their gliders wherever they want,in 20 places if they want, without the strong-armed tactics and nasty rhetoric incorrectly badmouthing my intentions.

I wish yours and ALL soaring businesses only the best success (the whole sector needs all the help it can get!) Just don't pee all over my well intentioned effort in the process.

Sincerely,

Bill Palmer
glidersource.com

I want to add my support for Bill Palmer's reply to Tim Mara's post about GliderSource.com and SoaringCafe.com.

To begin with, I want to also say that Paul Remde and Cumulus Soaring have no stake in this. Yes, Paul advertises with Soaring Cafe, but he has no editorial or business operations input to Soaring Cafe. So, suggesting anything else is simply wrong. Like all of the soaring suppliers (including Tim Mara), Paul works hard and provides excellent service. We are lucky to have several very good and knowledgeable vendors/supplies to serve the soaring community.

It is our desire to help fellow pilots through our classified ad area on Soaring Cafe. It is a free service. Yes, we look for and post classified ads for people based on the classified ads we find on the web. Our intent is two-fold.

First, we believe it helps them gain visibility for items they are trying to sell or find -- and, at no cost or effort on their part. The classified ads are also important to our readers who have been clearly interested in seeing classified ads on our site based on the pageview stats we see.

Second, it does provide content of interest to the Soaring Cafe. Yes, Tim, this means we can display ads from our paid advertisers which is also good for our readers. Just like most other magazines or news outlets, it is advertisers that make it all possible.

We immediately send an email to each person that we post a classified ad for to let them know that it is there, that they can add more photos or content, and to provide an opportunity to ask us to remove it. We too had quick and sharp rejections of our service by some of the classified ad holders. We too learned that Tim was also emailing them and threatening to remove their ad from Wings and Wheels if they did not have their ad removed from Soaring Cafe. We promptly remove ads when requested.

I think Bill Palmer is doing a great job with GliderSource.com and provides a much better site than the Wings and Wheels site for classified ads. Of course, I think that Soaring Cafe does a good job too. And, there is room for several sites just like there is AutoTrader, Craigslist, the local newspaper and several other sites if you want to sell your car!

Like GliderSource.com, we too cleverly *hide* our true intent on Soaring Cafe under our About page. I'm sure it is obvious to everyone what we are trying to do at SoaringCafe.com -- we are confident that our readers can sort all of this out for themselves.

Respectfully,
Bill Elliott
Publishing Editor
Soaring Cafe