Logging approaches

John,

The important point to note is that we should not try 'mix' FARs. If you
want to know about logging, go look in the logging FAR. All others such as
91.155, 91.13, etc are completely irrelavent.

The FAR says: "A person may log instrument time only for that flight time
when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments
under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."

For example, let's say that a Private non-IR pilot is flying over an
undercast. His/her engine fails completely and he/she glides through the
clouds to a safe landing. The pilot should log that actual time because the
'logging' FAR says the pilot can. IFR, VFR, reckless, cloud distances etc
etc etc has absolutely no bearing on the issue.

Hilton


John R Weiss wrote:
"Hilton" wrote...
Even if you are on a VFR flight plan and are not instrument rated?

The FARs do not specify 'must be on an IFR flight plan', nor do they
specify
that you need to be instrument rated to log actual.

Indeed, you can legally fly under VFR (even without any flight plan at
all) as
long as the weather is as prescribed in 91.155. There is no mention of a
visible horizon...

OTOH, you may find yourself at odds with 91.13(a) or 91.113(b) if you have
not
sufficiently prepared for the flight or don't have enough experience to
safely
fly in the conditions...

my understanding is that all the flight time above an undercast is logable
as IFR, because there is no natural horizon. You must use the Gyros to stay
level. An undercast isn't always level!

Harvey

"Hilton" wrote in message
ink.net...
John,

The important point to note is that we should not try 'mix' FARs. If you
want to know about logging, go look in the logging FAR. All others such
as
91.155, 91.13, etc are completely irrelavent.

The FAR says: "A person may log instrument time only for that flight time
when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments
under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."

For example, let's say that a Private non-IR pilot is flying over an
undercast. His/her engine fails completely and he/she glides through the
clouds to a safe landing. The pilot should log that actual time because
the
'logging' FAR says the pilot can. IFR, VFR, reckless, cloud distances etc
etc etc has absolutely no bearing on the issue.

Hilton


John R Weiss wrote:
"Hilton" wrote...
Even if you are on a VFR flight plan and are not instrument rated?

The FARs do not specify 'must be on an IFR flight plan', nor do they
specify
that you need to be instrument rated to log actual.

Indeed, you can legally fly under VFR (even without any flight plan at
all) as
long as the weather is as prescribed in 91.155. There is no mention of
a
visible horizon...

OTOH, you may find yourself at odds with 91.13(a) or 91.113(b) if you
have
not
sufficiently prepared for the flight or don't have enough experience to
safely
fly in the conditions...

"Eclipsme" wrote in message
.. .

my understanding is that all the flight time above an undercast is logable
as IFR, because there is no natural horizon. You must use the Gyros to
stay
level. An undercast isn't always level!


Are you in actual or simulated instrument flight conditions when you're
above an undercast?

"Hilton" wrote in message
ink.net...

The FARs do not specify 'must be on an IFR flight plan', nor do they
specify that you need to be instrument rated to log actual.


But they do specify that it must be actual or simulated instrument flight
conditions.

"John R. Copeland" wrote in message
.. .

Similarly if you are in uncontrolled airspace.


In uncontrolled airspace you can even fly under IFR without any flight plan
or clearance at all in weather less than that prescribed in FAR 91.155.

"Teacherjh" wrote in message ...

If you have ever had an experience flying over water or in
the mountains with a high overcast, moonless night, there might be a
reported visibility from stations of 50 miles. Trust me, your maneuvering
soley by reference to your instruments, and every bit of it is loggable as
actual.


Even if you are on a VFR flight plan and are not instrument rated?

Absolutely! How else would you get the instrument time needed to obtain
the rating?

What sort of flight plan or even flight rules the operation is conducted under
has never made a difference in logging.

The one bizarre twist is that the FAA even allows you to log instruments while
operating VFR. It can be legal VFR and be bad enough to have to fly by
instruments. The FAA allows this to count.

"Barry" wrote in message ...

Even in uncontrolled (Class G) airspace, VFR is permitted only if the weather
meets the requirements of 91.155. If the weather is below VFR minimums, you
can fly IFR without a clearance, but this is still IFR and must be in
accordance with the appropriate rules of Part 91, including fuel reserve,
cruising altitude, etc.

Yes, but immaterial. The weather can still be legal VFR, but bad enough to cause
yout to fly solely by instruments. The FAA has affirmed this is legally logable as
instrument time.

It can be legal VFR and be bad enough to have to fly by
instruments. The FAA allows this to count.


Where does the FAA say that this counts?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote...

Are you in actual or simulated instrument flight conditions when you're
above an undercast?

If you can't maintain level flight without reference to instruments, because
there is no discernible horizon for outside reference, you are in actual
instrument flight conditions.

"Teacherjh" wrote in message ...

It can be legal VFR and be bad enough to have to fly by
instruments. The FAA allows this to count.


Where does the FAA say that this counts?


It's what the rules literally say. Affirmed by FAA legal counsel: