Flarm in the US

On 8/10/2010 8:03 PM, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:45:25 -0500, Mike Schumann
wrote:


FLARM does you no good, if the aircraft that you are about to hit
doesn't have FLARM installed. No one is suggesting that you not be able
to buy FLARM. It's just not going to do you any good if the other
aircraft flying in your area are also not FLARM equipped.

If you are flying in a remote area, with a couple of other glider pilots
and you all buy FLARM, you have protection from each other, but not the
stray GA pilot who may wander thru the area. That may be good enough
for you and if you have a small enough group, you may be able to
convince everyone to buy a unit.

If you are flying near a major metro area, there is absolutely no way
you are going to get everyone in the area to invest in FLARM. In that
environment, you will also probably be flying within range of an ADS-B
ground station, so investing in ADS-B is definitely the way to go. Not
only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft, but you also will see
all other Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that show up on ATC radar.

Well Mike,

your parachute only helps in very few accident scenarios.
Why do you carry one? Why don't you simply fly withoput one and wait
until you get the glider zero/zero ejection seat that will save you
from a spin half a second before impact?


Noone doubts that Flarm is not the final solution to the US market
(althout Power Flarm comes close) - but with Flarm Chris would still
be alive, and the other midair that might have cost the lives of two
other pilots wouldn't have happened either.

Provocatively spoken:
Isn't it better to save a few lifes than not even trying to?


Andreas


The same statement applies to ADS-B. If Chris had been the only glider
there with FLARM installed, nothing would have changed.

--
Mike Schumann

On 8/10/2010 10:51 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:

If you are flying in a remote area, outside of radar coverage, there
is a very good chance that a transponder equipped aircraft will not be
interrogated on a regular basis, and, as a result, will NOT show up on
PowerFlarm or other PCAS type units.

My experience in places so remote my transponder is not interrogated
suggests there are so few other aircraft nearby my collision risk is
very small.

Over the eight years I've had my transponder, I've flown in many
different areas, most of them in the western half of the USA, but a few
on the eastern side, and I can't remember any area were the transponder
didn't get interrogated. In some places, it was infrequent (every 10 to
20 seconds, say) at times, particularly close to a mountain and below
the top.

So, I'm willing to take my chances with a solution that doesn't work
where no interrogations occur.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

On Aug 10, 9:21*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 8/10/2010 10:51 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:

If you are flying in a remote area, outside of radar coverage, there
is a very good chance that a transponder equipped aircraft will not be
interrogated on a regular basis, and, as a result, will NOT show up on
PowerFlarm or other PCAS type units.

My experience in places so remote my transponder is not interrogated
suggests there are so few other aircraft nearby my collision risk is
very small.

Over the eight years I've had my transponder, I've flown in many
different areas, most of them in the western half of the USA, but a few
on the eastern side, and I can't remember any area were the transponder
didn't get interrogated. In some places, it was infrequent (every 10 to
20 seconds, say) at times, particularly close to a mountain and below
the top.

So, I'm willing to take my chances with a solution that doesn't work
where no interrogations occur.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarmhttp://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

I bought a PowerFlarm today.............now it's up to my flying
buddies to do the same thing.

Brad

On 8/9/2010 10:54 PM, Bob wrote:

Mike

The "Flarm Guys" wanted to go to the US market when they first came
out but were advised by legal counsel in the US that they would have
"severe" liability problems. They are a small company, just 2 guys at
first. I am from the US and fly in a German club and when Flarm first
came out with the "No US citizens" codicil in the OpMan it was some
concern for the club. It hasn't been a problem so far and I would not
fly without a Flarm unit period! We have 100% compliance at our club.
I don't know what the numbers are for Germany, Italy, Austria,
Switzerland and France (the countries whose pilots I meet on a typical
Alps flight) but it appears quite high. Also the hang glider/
paraglider crowd is on board.
When I come back to the States eventually I hope Flarm/Pwr Flarm has
saturated the soaring market. It is the only way I'll be able to fly.

You may be pleased to learn there are many good soaring areas in the
country where the glider density is so low, colliding with another
glider is the least of your worries. In fact, that is a - maybe "the" -
major reason that Flarm is not popular in the USA. Flarm was developed
where the glider density is many times that of the USA, because there
are many more gliders, and much less airspace.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

On Aug 10, 11:29*pm, Brad wrote:

I bought a PowerFlarm today.............now it's up to my flying
buddies to do the same thing.

Brad- Hide quoted text -


Good for you, Brad! I placed my order back in January. Still
wondering what the rest of you guys are waiting for? And I don't want
to hear the excuse of "I won't buy one until after I have seen one and
gotten to use it." How many of you have plunked down TONS more money
than that before the prototype of your new LS-23 had even flown?
Thanks for the suggestion, Ed Kilbourne! You don't have to wait until
there is a rule to buy a piece of safety enhancing equipment. Even if
it isn't our perfect solution, it is a hell of a lot better than just
your eyes.

FLARM is coming to the US, Mike, so please do your best to accept it
and stop trying to say it is just another distraction that is going to
further delay this "ultimate" system that the government is
designing. Then three years from that date, he says "Just one more
wait..."

Steve Leonard

In article Eric Greenwell writes:
On 8/10/2010 10:51 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:

If you are flying in a remote area, outside of radar coverage, there
is a very good chance that a transponder equipped aircraft will not be
interrogated on a regular basis, and, as a result, will NOT show up on
PowerFlarm or other PCAS type units.

My experience in places so remote my transponder is not interrogated
suggests there are so few other aircraft nearby my collision risk is
very small.

Over the eight years I've had my transponder, I've flown in many
different areas, most of them in the western half of the USA, but a few
on the eastern side, and I can't remember any area were the transponder
didn't get interrogated. In some places, it was infrequent (every 10 to
20 seconds, say) at times, particularly close to a mountain and below
the top.

So, I'm willing to take my chances with a solution that doesn't work
where no interrogations occur.

A reasonable point. There is a lot of little used space to fly in.

As someone who started as a power pilot, I still find it hard to imagine
how one would be willing to fly in such close proximity to other aircraft
that you cannot continuously see.

"Cessna 123, traffic at your 3 o'clock, one mile, same direction" gets
my attention.

"glider 45, traffic at your 6 to 7 o'clock, 50 yards behind, 100 feet
above, circling in same direction" sounds terrifying. (I am in a blind
spot for him, and he is in one for me.)

I worry enough about a plane a mile away in a traffic pattern. Not having
continuous visual separation at 50 yards distance scares me.

I don't think the proprietary flarm system is the answer (being a fan of
open standards). I would much prefer spending my time where the only other
traffic is likely to be a bird, and enjoying the view.


Alan

On Aug 10, 9:57*pm, Steve Leonard wrote:
On Aug 10, 11:29*pm, Brad wrote:



I bought a PowerFlarm today.............now it's up to my flying
buddies to do the same thing.

Brad- Hide quoted text -

Good for you, Brad! *I placed my order back in January. *Still
wondering what the rest of you guys are waiting for? *And I don't want
to hear the excuse of "I won't buy one until after I have seen one and
gotten to use it." *How many of you have plunked down TONS more money
than that before the prototype of your new LS-23 *had even flown?
Thanks for the suggestion, Ed Kilbourne! *You don't have to wait until
there is a rule to buy a piece of safety enhancing equipment. *Even if
it isn't our perfect solution, it is a hell of a lot better than just
your eyes.

FLARM is coming to the US, Mike, so please do your best to accept it
and stop trying to say it is just another distraction that is going to
further delay this "ultimate" system that the government is
designing. *Then three years from that date, he says "Just one more
wait..."

Steve Leonard

Thanks Steve, I think it's a good move. I know as far as sailplanes
are concerned the more of my glider buddies that use the them the
better, I need to study more on how it will help with power traffic,
but anything to help me "see" what's out there has to be a good start.

Also............I lost a friend in a mid air a few years
ago...........I'll share 2 things: I dug his transponder antenna out
of a 3 foot hole in the ground, it's now sticking out of the top of a
tree trunk his glider snapped off as it's crashed thru the
trees..........the other; seeing your friend strapped to a backboard
at the end of a rope under a helicopter is something I NEVER want to
experience again.

Yes, buying Flarm was a good move for me.

Brad

Dave N, I just read what is on the web, and my Flarm had a pressure
capsule AIUI before I had the IGC logger function retrofitted.

From http://www.lxavionics.co.uk/flarm.htm :


“Flarm consists of a very low power RF transmitter (868.2 MHz) with a
range of 2- 3 Km that continuously broadcasts its position and
velocity vector derived from its integrated GPS receiver. It uses a
combination of a barometric altitude sensor and GPS derived altitude
for determining proximity and flight path. In parallel it receives any
signals from nearby Flarm equipped aircraft . . . ”

Anyway, the important thing is that its collision alert algorithm
seems pretty good, but not perfect, and at least one person has
reported that the height difference shown (is the threat higher,
lower, or at your level) can sometimes be in the wrong direction – but
only when it is almost on your level anyway.

I don't find that surprising. We are sensitive to height differences
of a few feet. Neither barometric capsules nor GPS height are that
accurate. But GPS height as determined by two units very close to each
other are probably subjected to a very similar if not identical error
in height calculation, so the differences are probably small compared
with the absolute height tolerance.

Regards - Chris N.

On Aug 10, 9:58*pm, (Alan) wrote:

I would much prefer spending my time where the only other
traffic is likely to be a bird, and enjoying the view.

* * * * Alan

Alan - The flaw in that logic is that you cannot control who choses to
fly close to YOU or your location! You can try to hide, but if you
can get to a certain place with your glider, chances are that other
aircraft are capable of reaching that location as well.

I'm not trying to be mean or say that you have to like gaggle-flying
or the FLARM device; I'm just saying that a "head in the sand"
attitude isn't a substitute for protection.

--Noel

On Aug 11, 12:29*am, Brad wrote:

I bought a PowerFlarm today.............now it's up to my flying
buddies to do the same thing.

I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on this, myself.

Did you have to put down a deposit? And is the 'discount' price still
available?

-Evan