Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 12:10:19 AM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
I also experienced recently slow takeoffs in my fully ballasted 29 which felt very uncomfortable. The yaw string was all over the place often showing skidding. I am noticing it more in my 18m 29 than my 27, perhaps since the wing loading is higher, or due to more adverse yaw. Seems like 70 knots should be the minimum, preferably 75 knots.

Ramy

From a glider pilot (who has BTDT) and a current towpilot - the answer is simple, if not always effective: ALWAYS establish comms with the tow pilot before the tow (satisfies the FAR requirement for a pilot to pilot briefing).. If you (or the tow plane) do not have working radios, get face to face with the tuggie and TELL HIM what speed to fly - that is YOUR responsibility..

Once on tow, if the tow starts to slow down - TELL HIM ON THE RADIO TO SPEED UP! That's why you have the darn thing! Then, if the tow continues to get dangerously slow (when you can't stay above the wake) and radio or wing rocks do not solve the problem, release (assuming you are high enough for a safe PTT) and get face to face with the tow pilot when he lands and explain the problem, nicely. Especially with tow pilots that are not also glider pilots, they REALLY may not understand what is going on at the back end of the rope!

Most tow pilots really want to give you a good tow, but feedback can be rare; take the time to debrief you tow pilot if anything unusual happens on tow, and when possible brief and practice emergencies on tow - visual signals (both glider and towplane), simulated tow plane engine failure, glider dive brakes open, etc. Makes the tow more interesting than just a drag around the local area waiting for 3000' AGL to appear on the clock...

Cheers,

66

On 8/6/2018 7:47 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
Big SnipÂ* Makes the tow more interesting than just a drag around the
local area waiting for 3000' AGL to appear on the clock...
Cheers,

66

As an active glider pilot and retired tow pilot, it always disappointed
me as the tuggie when the glider pilot would tell me he would get off at
3,000' AGL.Â* Then we'd proceed tow through super lift only to have him
release in sink at 3,000' AGL and practically beat me back to the
ground.Â* Just one of my pet peeves because the tuggie usually gets the
blame for the poor judgement of the glider pilot.Â* Get off in lift, not
at some predetermined altitude!
--
Dan, 5J

At 13:47 06 August 2018, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 12:10:19 AM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
I also experienced recently slow takeoffs in my fully ballasted 29
which=
felt very uncomfortable. The yaw string was all over the place often
showi=
ng skidding. I am noticing it more in my 18m 29 than my 27, perhaps since
t=
he wing loading is higher, or due to more adverse yaw. Seems like 70
knots
=
should be the minimum, preferably 75 knots.=20
=20
Ramy

From a glider pilot (who has BTDT) and a current towpilot - the answer is
s=
imple, if not always effective: ALWAYS establish comms with the tow pilot
b=
efore the tow (satisfies the FAR requirement for a pilot to pilot
briefing)=
.. If you (or the tow plane) do not have working radios, get face to
face
w=
ith the tuggie and TELL HIM what speed to fly - that is YOUR
responsibility=
..

Once on tow, if the tow starts to slow down - TELL HIM ON THE RADIO TO
SPEE=
D UP! That's why you have the darn thing! Then, if the tow continues to
get=
dangerously slow (when you can't stay above the wake) and radio or wing
ro=
cks do not solve the problem, release (assuming you are high enough for a
s=
afe PTT) and get face to face with the tow pilot when he lands and
explain
=
the problem, nicely. Especially with tow pilots that are not also glider
pi=
lots, they REALLY may not understand what is going on at the back end of
th=
e rope!

Most tow pilots really want to give you a good tow, but feedback can be
rar=
e; take the time to debrief you tow pilot if anything unusual happens on
to=
w, and when possible brief and practice emergencies on tow - visual
signals=
(both glider and towplane), simulated tow plane engine failure, glider
div=
e brakes open, etc. Makes the tow more interesting than just a drag
around=
the local area waiting for 3000' AGL to appear on the clock...

Agree entirely about this. Talk to the tug pilot before you start.

I'm a new tuggie but have been gliding for 50 years. I want to give people
good tows. But if you don't let me know what you want then I won't feel
that bad if you don't get it.

Talking on the way up is all very well but we have to coordinate with the
tower before take off and it may take a while before I change back to the
gliding frequency.

It's sad how many people think that there's no need to talk to the tuggie.

Chris

It goes without saying that one must communicate their desired tow speed with the tow pilot (especially when faster than normal) and request more speed during the tow if necessary
That said, it is easier said than done at the high density altitude in the west, especially with non powerful tow planes. Releasing from tow is often not a good option when you just lifted off at the far end of the runway fully ballasted.

Ramy

At 02:28 07 August 2018, Ramy wrote:
It goes without saying that one must communicate their desired tow speed
with the tow pilot (especially when faster than normal) and request more
speed during the tow if necessary
That said, it is easier said than done at the high density altitude in
the
west, especially with non powerful tow planes. Releasing from tow is
often
not a good option when you just lifted off at the far end of the runway
fully ballasted.

Ramy

Hi sorry for the thread creep
I have just Changed to a Ventus 2c after 1500 without flaps.
As briefed I roll in negative flap and change to +2 when I am sure that I
have aileron control.The tug pilot knows all this and tows me at 70+knts.
Am I now at the flap limit for positive flaps?
Last flight I was happy up to 70 but above I chose to go to 0.
Jon

Hi sorry for the thread creep
I have just Changed to a Ventus 2c after 1500 without flaps.
As briefed I roll in negative flap and change to +2 when I am sure that I
have aileron control.The tug pilot knows all this and tows me at 70+knts.
Am I now at the flap limit for positive flaps?
Last flight I was happy up to 70 but above I chose to go to 0.
Jon

Limit for any positive flap setting on V2C is 86 knots, Vfe per flight manual. Typical takeoff starts at -1, going to 0 as you get aileron authority, then +1 as you approach takeoff and throughout the tow. That's always worked for me. Takeoff and tow at+2 always required too much forward stick for me. YMMV. I think you'll enjoy the V2C. Great xc ship!

At 04:17 09 August 2018, GliderCZ wrote:

Hi sorry for the thread creep
I have just Changed to a Ventus 2c after 1500 without flaps.
As briefed I roll in negative flap and change to +2 when I am
sure that I
have aileron control.The tug pilot knows all this and tows me at
70+knts.
Am I now at the flap limit for positive flaps?
Last flight I was happy up to 70 but above I chose to go to 0.
Jon

Limit for any positive flap setting on V2C is 86 knots, Vfe per flight
manu=
al. Typical takeoff starts at -1, going to 0 as you get aileron
authority,
=
then +1 as you approach takeoff and throughout the tow. That's
always
worke=
d for me. Takeoff and tow at+2 always required too much forward
stick for
m=
e. YMMV. I think you'll enjoy the V2C. Great xc ship!

Thanks that helps.

This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71

Releasing is always an option.Â* I would rather land straight ahead,
maneuvering just enough to avoid any hard things on the ground than
stalling on tow.Â* That will kill you.Â* Taking off the wings between two
cars or tractors or whatever will dissipate most of the energy of the
crash and the insurance company can buy you a new glider. Not to mention
you might also kill the tuggie by hanging on in a losing situation.

On 8/7/2018 8:45 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71



--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:52:39 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Releasing is always an option.Â* I would rather land straight ahead,
maneuvering just enough to avoid any hard things on the ground than
stalling on tow.Â* That will kill you.Â* Taking off the wings between two
cars or tractors or whatever will dissipate most of the energy of the
crash and the insurance company can buy you a new glider. Not to mention
you might also kill the tuggie by hanging on in a losing situation.

On 8/7/2018 8:45 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71



--
Dan, 5J

Dan: You're not fully understanding the situation. If your nose is pointed at the sky and you are at a very low altitude, then you will die or be seriously injured if you pull the release. So this discussion is about trying to make sure this doesn't happen to others. I had to figure this out for myself back before there was RAS. If you have altitude to recover, then of course, pull the release and land. Better yet, make sure your tow pilot knows to keep the speed up.