Remote thermal detection

On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 7:22:36 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 10:50:59 PM UTC-7, Craig Funston wrote:
Motion of particles in the air

Not saying you are wrong, but what lidar unit can detect particles in the air? And from the CEO “I can see what you’re doing with your fingers at 100 meters,� is a statement with obvious intentions to decieve and confuse. "Seeing" is not a word I would associate with lidar, particularly real time. And a 30 hz lidar unit (did they mean 30 khz on their website?) "see's" nothing. Lidar gives you dots in space and their relative relation to each other and the lidar source, then those dots need to be interpreted to give the needed information. Maybe they are doing amazing interpretation, hard to tell from the website. But a 30 hz (or even a 30 khz) lidar gives very, very few data points, particularly from a moving car. So the system is interpreting something from that data to give information of some type, but this is nothing like seeing or vision as we would typically think of it. But it sounds good.
Not to be confused, the self driving car is on it's way and will dramatically change transportation, but that's not really a lidar issue.
And, more to the point of the thread, seeing thermals would change the sport, but would it lessen the fun in any way?

I interpret that what they are meaning by 30 Hz is a scene update rate of 30 Hz. That would actually seem much faster than needed for the glider application and would therefore offer a potential for integration over time to improve energy gathering. Remember also that the glider application has no need of resolving individual bugs. We're interested in net signal over a largish volume of space which again provides an integration opportunity over az, el and r.

Didn't the article say something like 100 or 200 meters range? Is that
enough to go through the OODA loop effectively? How wide an area will
be scanned? The wider the area, the sooner a thermal can be detected,
but the more power required to scan the area. How much power is
required vs. how much can the ship provide? Lower power means a
narrower field of view until you're basically blundering into thermals
as on a blue day (not considering observation of ground features).

I think it'll be a long time coming and, when it arrives, it will remove
all challenge from soaring thus further reducing the participants.

On 9/30/2016 9:05 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 7:22:36 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 10:50:59 PM UTC-7, Craig Funston wrote:
Motion of particles in the air
Not saying you are wrong, but what lidar unit can detect particles in the air? And from the CEO “I can see what you’re doing with your fingers at 100 meters,� is a statement with obvious intentions to decieve and confuse. "Seeing" is not a word I would associate with lidar, particularly real time. And a 30 hz lidar unit (did they mean 30 khz on their website?) "see's" nothing. Lidar gives you dots in space and their relative relation to each other and the lidar source, then those dots need to be interpreted to give the needed information. Maybe they are doing amazing interpretation, hard to tell from the website. But a 30 hz (or even a 30 khz) lidar gives very, very few data points, particularly from a moving car. So the system is interpreting something from that data to give information of some type, but this is nothing like seeing or vision as we would typically think of it. But it sounds good.
Not to be confused, the self driving car is on it's way and will dramatically change transportation, but that's not really a lidar issue.
And, more to the point of the thread, seeing thermals would change the sport, but would it lessen the fun in any way?
I interpret that what they are meaning by 30 Hz is a scene update rate of 30 Hz. That would actually seem much faster than needed for the glider application and would therefore offer a potential for integration over time to improve energy gathering. Remember also that the glider application has no need of resolving individual bugs. We're interested in net signal over a largish volume of space which again provides an integration opportunity over az, el and r.

--
Dan, 5J

Really, why is that? Not that this applies to you, but I have noticed that when new technology comes along so do the naysayers, GPS, Flarm, stealth Flarm, "entertainment system computers..." "This is the end of our sport"....

Having been an offshore sailor and glider pilot for many years, I can tell you that whatever you invent, it will still take a sharp mind and earned skills to guide an airplane or sailboat using just the energy in the atmosphere.

Personally, I want a Hud projected onto the canopy.


On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 6:33:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 6:21:27 AM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
Awesome I can't wait!!

Here comes the end of this world as we know it.

On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 12:17:59 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Personally, I want a Hud projected onto the canopy.

The view outside is too beautiful to mess it up with overlays :-) I want 3D audio and a big bright screen that covers the whole panel.

If a short range LIDAR can detect a thermal ahead, then initiating a pull up before entering the lift might prove advantageous. A bit longer range and it will be possible to make small course corrections while flying slowly in areas of lift.

5Z

Well, the point of my comment about the possibility of integration over time and space is that integration can accomplish a trade of resolution for increased range. So, I think there's basis for hoping the same hardware might give better range as a thermal detector. That said, bugs are pretty small and radar and lidar operate to an r^-4 law -- a tough nut to push against..

On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 9:52:33 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Didn't the article say something like 100 or 200 meters range? Is that
enough to go through the OODA loop effectively? How wide an area will
be scanned? The wider the area, the sooner a thermal can be detected,
but the more power required to scan the area. How much power is
required vs. how much can the ship provide? Lower power means a
narrower field of view until you're basically blundering into thermals
as on a blue day (not considering observation of ground features).

I think it'll be a long time coming and, when it arrives, it will remove
all challenge from soaring thus further reducing the participants.

On 9/30/2016 9:05 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
On Friday, September 30, 2016 at 7:22:36 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 10:50:59 PM UTC-7, Craig Funston wrote:
Motion of particles in the air
Not saying you are wrong, but what lidar unit can detect particles in the air? And from the CEO “I can see what you’re doing with your fingers at 100 meters,� is a statement with obvious intentions to decieve and confuse. "Seeing" is not a word I would associate with lidar, particularly real time. And a 30 hz lidar unit (did they mean 30 khz on their website?) "see's" nothing. Lidar gives you dots in space and their relative relation to each other and the lidar source, then those dots need to be interpreted to give the needed information. Maybe they are doing amazing interpretation, hard to tell from the website. But a 30 hz (or even a 30 khz) lidar gives very, very few data points, particularly from a moving car. So the system is interpreting something from that data to give information of some type, but this is nothing like seeing or vision as we would typically think of it. But it sounds good.
Not to be confused, the self driving car is on it's way and will dramatically change transportation, but that's not really a lidar issue.
And, more to the point of the thread, seeing thermals would change the sport, but would it lessen the fun in any way?
I interpret that what they are meaning by 30 Hz is a scene update rate of 30 Hz. That would actually seem much faster than needed for the glider application and would therefore offer a potential for integration over time to improve energy gathering. Remember also that the glider application has no need of resolving individual bugs. We're interested in net signal over a largish volume of space which again provides an integration opportunity over az, el and r.

--
Dan, 5J

On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 7:01:38 PM UTC-4, Craig Funston wrote:
We're getting closer. A fist size LIDAR for $250 thanks to the push for self driving cars.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...s_2&set=602506

Cheers,
7Q

Back in the 80's hang gliding pilots had the "Thermal Snooper" Didn't take off (pun intended).

Dennis DC

On Saturday, October 1, 2016 at 6:23:06 PM UTC+13, Steve Koerner wrote:
That said, bugs are pretty small and radar and lidar operate to an r^-4 law -- a tough nut to push against.

Yup. There's the problem. If you can scan the laser around, then the detection side is 'only' an r^-2 challenge but even so.. We already have lasers which are powerful enough but the big issue is detecting enough light from dust/bugs set against a bright background at a big enough distance (1-2km) and in a short enough time (100ms) to be useful. The people using LIDAR to map air currents around wind turbines use big-aperture (30 - 40cm) reflecting telescopes to capture enough incoming light. Wing pod, anyone?

Then imagine if every glider had them and imagine the cross-talk issues from all those lasers frantically scanning. Having said that, the vehicle lidar could be set up quite easily to detect big objects in a themal, like gliders circling within 1-2km and it could then give a warning on a HUD... oh, wait...

DH
TX

On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 7:01:38 PM UTC-4, Craig Funston wrote:
We're getting closer. A fist size LIDAR for $250 thanks to the push for self driving cars.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...s_2&set=602506

Cheers,
7Q

Boggs says " it is too hard to soar"!!!
Come on every ( well nearly)glider pilot can stay up all day,
on normal thermal soaring day, that is a day with enough convective
depth and not ever development.

I digress; In the 70s , I experimented with electric field detection
using nose and tail probes. Other researchers were doing this (eg Markson). I was able to observe a horizontal field across
a weak thermally created airmass boundary, by crossing and recrossing the otherwise invisible division. For XC soaring this is useless,because the problem of subtracting the large vertical atmospheric field from the weak horizontal field was close to impossible with 1970s technology.
These days there is enormous computing power and memory for calculations and 2D displays. Sensors for the vertical and horizontal fields, plus bank angle, could allow data accumulation allowing the wing tip sensors to show a display of horizontal fields( thermals are
usually positively charged). This could be a useful indication
for interthermal path selection.


John Firth an old no longer bold PIK 20E pilot.

I've seen enough soaring birds make a beeline for a thermal 1/4 mile away from them that I have to believe there is something visible, at least in some cases. Perhaps a creative optical solution might work if we find the right wavelength and polarization?

I also spent many happy years playing with the electric fields around clouds and sadly think they will be too chaotic around turbulent thermals to be any use.

Mike

A FLIR unit might offer a visual indication from much larger distance?

On Sunday, October 2, 2016 at 7:46:12 AM UTC-7, Mike the Strike wrote:
I've seen enough soaring birds make a beeline for a thermal 1/4 mile away from them that I have to believe there is something visible, at least in some cases. Perhaps a creative optical solution might work if we find the right wavelength and polarization?

I also spent many happy years playing with the electric fields around clouds and sadly think they will be too chaotic around turbulent thermals to be any use.

Mike