Mounting a turn coordinator on the tail?

(Things are so slow in this group at the moment, I thought I'd post
this to get your input on something I've been mulling over...)

If you put a plane into a skidding left turn (wings level) with left
rudder, the ball on the panel goes to the right.

However, I've been trying to work out what would happen to the ball if
it was mounted on the tail.
The rudder is pushing the tail of the plane to the right, so I think
the ball would go to the left.
Can anyone confirm this?

Tim.

I don't think so. My understanding is the ball rests in a slightly
curved tube, arranged so that gravity tends to center it. Centrifugal
force tries to move it to the outside of the skid, up the curved tube.
Neither of these forces depends on where you mount the turn coordinator.


Tim Auckland wrote:
(Things are so slow in this group at the moment, I thought I'd post
this to get your input on something I've been mulling over...)

If you put a plane into a skidding left turn (wings level) with left
rudder, the ball on the panel goes to the right.

However, I've been trying to work out what would happen to the ball if
it was mounted on the tail.
The rudder is pushing the tail of the plane to the right, so I think
the ball would go to the left.
Can anyone confirm this?

Tim.

Stubby,

Thanks, I think I've got it now.

As the turn is initiated, the tail has to go right (this is what
causes the plane to turn) and my guess is that the ball initially goes
very slightly left.

However, once a constant-radius turn has been achieved, the ball will
be on the right (outside) of the turn.

Tim.

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 18:28:28 -0400, Stubby
wrote:

I don't think so. My understanding is the ball rests in a slightly
curved tube, arranged so that gravity tends to center it. Centrifugal
force tries to move it to the outside of the skid, up the curved tube.
Neither of these forces depends on where you mount the turn coordinator.


Tim Auckland wrote:
(Things are so slow in this group at the moment, I thought I'd post
this to get your input on something I've been mulling over...)

If you put a plane into a skidding left turn (wings level) with left
rudder, the ball on the panel goes to the right.

However, I've been trying to work out what would happen to the ball if
it was mounted on the tail.
The rudder is pushing the tail of the plane to the right, so I think
the ball would go to the left.
Can anyone confirm this?

Tim.

What causes a plane to turn is the horizontal component of the lift
vector. It certainly does not depend on the turn coordinator.
What counts is the center of gravity of the plane, not the tail.



Tim Auckland wrote:
Stubby,

Thanks, I think I've got it now.

As the turn is initiated, the tail has to go right (this is what
causes the plane to turn) and my guess is that the ball initially goes
very slightly left.

However, once a constant-radius turn has been achieved, the ball will
be on the right (outside) of the turn.

Tim.

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 18:28:28 -0400, Stubby
wrote:

I don't think so. My understanding is the ball rests in a slightly
curved tube, arranged so that gravity tends to center it. Centrifugal
force tries to move it to the outside of the skid, up the curved tube.
Neither of these forces depends on where you mount the turn coordinator.


Tim Auckland wrote:
(Things are so slow in this group at the moment, I thought I'd post
this to get your input on something I've been mulling over...)

If you put a plane into a skidding left turn (wings level) with left
rudder, the ball on the panel goes to the right.

However, I've been trying to work out what would happen to the ball if
it was mounted on the tail.
The rudder is pushing the tail of the plane to the right, so I think
the ball would go to the left.
Can anyone confirm this?

Tim.

I've never quite bought in to the "horizontal component of lift"
explanation for what causes a plane to turn.

I started this discussion talking about a "wings level skidding turn".
There's no horizontal component of lift generated by the wings if the
wings are level. There is however a couple comprising of the
rightwards force from the rudder, and the induced leftwards force of
wind resistance acting further forward along the fuselage. It's the
couple which causes the plane to turn.

I can also generate a substantial amount of horizontal force from the
wings without the plane turning (think forward slip); it just moves
sideways through the air.

I believe what causes a plane to turn is the couple comprised of
opposing forces which aren't aligned.

For example, in a coordinated left turn, the wings generate a
horizontal force to the left. The tail generates a horizontal force
to the right. The forces aren't aligned, so a couple is generated,
and the airplane turns left.

Without a force to the right, the "horizontal component of lift" to
the left generated by the banked wings would merely cause the plane to
move left -- it wouldn't turn.

Just my $0.10 worth, and I'll happily listen to contradictory
arguments.

Tim.

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 20:52:00 -0400, Stubby
wrote:

What causes a plane to turn is the horizontal component of the lift
vector. It certainly does not depend on the turn coordinator.
What counts is the center of gravity of the plane, not the tail.



Tim Auckland wrote:
Stubby,

Thanks, I think I've got it now.

As the turn is initiated, the tail has to go right (this is what
causes the plane to turn) and my guess is that the ball initially goes
very slightly left.

However, once a constant-radius turn has been achieved, the ball will
be on the right (outside) of the turn.

Tim.

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 18:28:28 -0400, Stubby
wrote:

I don't think so. My understanding is the ball rests in a slightly
curved tube, arranged so that gravity tends to center it. Centrifugal
force tries to move it to the outside of the skid, up the curved tube.
Neither of these forces depends on where you mount the turn coordinator.


Tim Auckland wrote:
(Things are so slow in this group at the moment, I thought I'd post
this to get your input on something I've been mulling over...)

If you put a plane into a skidding left turn (wings level) with left
rudder, the ball on the panel goes to the right.

However, I've been trying to work out what would happen to the ball if
it was mounted on the tail.
The rudder is pushing the tail of the plane to the right, so I think
the ball would go to the left.
Can anyone confirm this?

Tim.

I started this discussion talking about a "wings level skidding turn".
There's no horizontal component of lift generated by the wings if the
wings are level. There is however a couple comprising of the
rightwards force from the rudder, and the induced leftwards force of
wind resistance acting further forward along the fuselage. It's the
couple which causes the plane to turn.

There is also the fact that the thrust vector is more aligned with the
direction of desired flight.

I believe what causes a plane to turn is the couple comprised of
opposing forces which aren't aligned.

This is always true, for any acceleration not in the direct line of
flight. There is no "one thing" which causes anything in aviation
(except at the most fundamental level, where all flight is controlled by
money). In a coordinated turn, there are several forces, as you pointed
out. However, not all turns are coordinated. What makes a car turn?
Are there analogs in aviation of these forces?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Stubby wrote:
What causes a plane to turn is the horizontal component of the lift
vector. It certainly does not depend on the turn coordinator.
What counts is the center of gravity of the plane, not the tail.

BZZT. Incorrect over simplification and psuedoscientific drivel
given by the FAA. If you believed the FAA description, then the
airplane would just translate sidewise rather than turning in a
circle. While the horizontal component of lift is what pulls
you to the interior of the turn, the tail is VERY important to
actually "turn" the aircraft direction so that the horizontal
component continually gets pointed to the center of the turn.

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 08:06:07 -0400, Ron Natalie
wrote:

While the horizontal component of lift is what pulls
you to the interior of the turn, the tail is VERY important to
actually "turn" the aircraft direction
----------------------------------------
so that the horizontal
component continually gets pointed to the center of the turn.
----------------------------------------
Now that's a VERY interesting way of thinking about it.

What got me thinking about all this was the observation that I found
it difficult to keep the ball exactly centered in a 50-degree bank, so
I started thinking about whether it's even possible to do this in a
60-degree bank. In theory, in a 60-degree bank, the angle of attack,
controlled by the elevator, has to be such that 2g of lift is
generated. However, in a steep bank, the rate of turn is mostly
controlled by the elevator. The rudder's forces are mostly acting
vertically, so it has a large effect on whether the nose is pointing
up or down.
If you keep the nose roughly horizontal with the rudder, and 2g of
lift with the elevator, you've no controls left to affect the rate of
turn.
Do the forces in this case work out such that the ball is centered?

Any areobatic piliots out there? Is the ball typically centered in a
60-degree bank?

Tim.

Ron Natalie wrote:
Stubby wrote:
What causes a plane to turn is the horizontal component of the lift
vector. It certainly does not depend on the turn coordinator.
What counts is the center of gravity of the plane, not the tail.

...opinion deleted...

While the horizontal component of lift is what pulls
you to the interior of the turn, the tail is VERY important to
actually "turn" the aircraft direction so that the horizontal
component continually gets pointed to the center of the turn.

The elevator/rudder mechanism is for applying the torques to the plane
so it rolls and yaws. Also, as I remember from the first day of
physics class, a physical body behaves as a point mass at the center of
gravity with 3 translational forces and 3 rotational torques that can be
applied to it.

The horizontal component of lift behaves like a string tied to a rock
being swung around. The string does indeed apply force to the center of
gravity of the rock and "points" to the center of the turn. If you put
a paint spot on the rock and want to make the spot always face you, the
rock will have to yaw at the same rate as you are rotating it around
you; consequently something like a rudder will be needed.

Tim Auckland wrote:
(Things are so slow in this group at the moment, I thought I'd post
this to get your input on something I've been mulling over...)

If you put a plane into a skidding left turn (wings level) with left
rudder, the ball on the panel goes to the right.

However, I've been trying to work out what would happen to the ball if
it was mounted on the tail.
The rudder is pushing the tail of the plane to the right, so I think
the ball would go to the left.
Can anyone confirm this?

Tim.

If you are coordinated, the ball will be centered
If you are slipping, or skidding, the ball will be just the same as if
it was in the panel.

Dave