Issues around de-ice on a 182

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

If you are actually accepting a clearance that takes you into an area
where
non-trace icing has been reported by another pilot, you are fool, pure and
simple. Even if only trace icing, you'd better be damn sure you know you
can clear it within a very short period of time.

Does that include flight in a known-ice TKS airplane?

How do you know?

Have you ever tried it?

Have you ever talked to anyone who has?


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...
Does that include flight in a known-ice TKS airplane?

Yes.

How do you know?

Those who know told me.

Have you ever tried it?

No.

Have you ever talked to anyone who has?

Yes.

Known-ice TKS is there to GET YOU OUT of icing conditions. Why in the world
would you intentionally fly into an area where the only purpose of your
safety equipment is to get you out?

Saying one should fly into actual reporting icing conditions just because
you have known-ice TKS installed is like saying I should intentionally spin
a Cirrus because I have the safety equipment to recover from the spin
installed.

Keep in mind that "known ice" for the purpose of icing certification means
"freezing temperature and visible moisture", while the icing conditions I'm
talking about here are those that are truly known to exist (that is, someone
has just been there and reported that ice is present).

Pete

1) Inquire about cost of maintenance
2) Inquire about cost of TKS (usually sold in 5 gallon containers?)
3) Inquire about FBO's that stock TKS (always call ahead)
4) Where are you going to store extra TKS in the aircraft
5) Inquire about how to clean TKS from aircraft interior (when I was a
dispatcher for NetJets, I had a pilot call in and report that the aft
baggage compartment was thoroughly deiced. The TKS container cap had not
been secured prior to flight, had tipped over and sloshed around the
compartment).

"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
my winter dispatch rate is higher than my summer dispatch rate
even with radar and weather datalink and a Strikefinder.

Wow! You must be having a hell of a thunderstorm season, Richard.

This summer, weather datalink has helped me to make every trip I've
planned without a single cancellation (although I did land short once).
In the last 5 weeks I've flown 30 xc hours despite widespread
thunderstorms over the entire South nearly every day. That's with a lot
less capable airplane than you have.

I'd be interested to read your go/no go parameters. What kinds of
summer conditions keep you on the ground?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

I have a known ice installation on my B-55 Baron, and it works great. A twin
has the built-in redundancy of two electrical systems, and the other
requirements include a high heat pitot and stall warning vane, along with an
ice light. There are two pumps each for the windshield as well as the flying
surfaces.

It definitely increases the dispatch rate in the icing season, which in the
Midwest is from October through May (or longer). Several months ago I
encountered moderate ice over Michigan, and the commuters as well as other
GA aircraft were all calling looking for different altitudes. Luckily I was
able to descend out of the clouds, and the TKS completely protected all of
the flying surfaces. On landing, the nose, spinners, and even the landing
lights were covered with around 3/8ths inch of mixed ice, but the wings and
tail were fine.

I believe that most users would agree that TKS is superior to boots, hot
props, and alcohol for ice protection.

The downsides a the initial installation is expensive, but should last a
lifetime. It does not require routine maintenance and doesn't slow you down
like boots, and won't need replacement. A full tank takes away nearly 100
pounds of useful load, and the stuff is expensive. I recall a 55 gallon drum
costing around $450.00. I never take off in the winter unless the tank is
full, and also carry several extra jugs around for longer trips. I also
collect the overflow and use it in a garden sprayer or spray bottle to deice
the plane if I think I will encounter icing conditions shortly after take
off

It also makes a terrible slippery slimy mess on the hangar floor which lasts
forever. It will drip for several weeks after use, and this means doing a
pre-flight invariably will either get your back dripped on, or you will
kneel in the stuff on the floor or slip.

However, all things considered, it is the only way to go to get ice
protection in the winter. It is not a ticket to drone on for hours in
freezing precip, but it will get you through or away from an icing layer
safely. It has been a great investment and has certainly increased the
usefulness of he plane.

What you say is true about propellor planes. Airline jets on the other hand
are designed to fly through most icing conditions all day long. This is
because excess hot bleed air from the compressor sections is routed through
the wings and empennage, the so-called "hot wing" system. Nacelle inlets
and other critical areas are heated also. It is a matter of degree (pun
intended). Enough heat is available and provided to deice a jet in all but
the most extreme conditions. No one has figured out how to deice a prop
plane to the same degree.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
No de-icing system allows a pilot to continue flight in icing conditions
when encountered

Really? I had been under the impression that airline systems did allow
continued flight in icing conditions. That's not true, eh? Okay...well,
in
any case, I think that there are pilots out there that don't understand
that
de-ice doesn't mean you can just bomb on through icing conditions as if
they
weren't there.

If not, so much the better. But if so, it might be helpful to dissuade
someone of that idea.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

Those who know told me.

Has anyone told of a situation where TKS has not worked in a known-ice TKS
airplane? If so, then -- very seriously -- I would REALLY like to talk to
that pilot. I have never -- repeat never -- heard any concerns whatsoever
about TKS performance even among pilots who have clearly pushed TKS beyond
the point that is legal and appropriate. I have heard stories about people
departing in freezing rain with TKS with no problems at all. Again, I do
*NOT* advocate known-ice TKS for anything beyond a climb above light to
moderate icing conditions. However, it is helpful to know how a system
performs at the boundaries. If you have any negative information whatseover
about TKS performance in a known-ice airplane, please let me know; I have
yet to hear of a single negative story except in the case of someone who ran
out of fluid.

Known-ice TKS is there to GET YOU OUT of icing conditions. Why in the
world
would you intentionally fly into an area where the only purpose of your
safety equipment is to get you out?

I would do this to depart and climb on top in the winter if I have a planned
trip with reported light to moderate rime icing and tops within my
airplane's capability.


Saying one should fly into actual reporting icing conditions just because
you have known-ice TKS installed is like saying I should intentionally
spin
a Cirrus because I have the safety equipment to recover from the spin
installed.

No, it's like saying I would spin a Citabria which is certified for spins.
The Citabria is certified for spins, but I would use due caution at an
appropriate altitude with appropriate training. My airplane is certified
for flight into light or moderate known icing conditions; I regularly use
that certification to climb through a layer to non-icing conditions.
Indeed, rarely is icing more than 3,000 feet thick in winter stratus
conditions and the TKS does a great job keeping the plane clean so usually
my icing exposure is no more than maybe 10 minutes in the climb since my
climb performance does not degrade in icing other than the need to conform
to the stated minimum climb airspeed in icing conditions.

Keep in mind that "known ice" for the purpose of icing certification means
"freezing temperature and visible moisture", while the icing conditions
I'm
talking about here are those that are truly known to exist (that is,
someone
has just been there and reported that ice is present).

Known icing for the purpose of icing certification means either forecast or
observed. If it is wintertime and light to moderate icing is reported by
piston airplanes climbing on top and no freezing rain is forecast, I depart
all the time in my plane and it is perfectly legal to do so. If jets are
reporting moderate icing or if anyone is reporting severe icing or if
freezing rain is reported by anyone, then that is a different story.



--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

Those who know told me.

Has anyone told of a situation where TKS has not worked in a known-ice TKS
airplane? If so, then -- very seriously -- I would REALLY like to talk to
that pilot. I have never -- repeat never -- heard any concerns whatsoever
about TKS performance even among pilots who have clearly pushed TKS beyond
the point that is legal and appropriate. I have heard stories about people
departing in freezing rain with TKS with no problems at all. Again, I do
*NOT* advocate known-ice TKS for anything beyond a climb above light to
moderate icing conditions. However, it is helpful to know how a system
performs at the boundaries. If you have any negative information whatseover
about TKS performance in a known-ice airplane, please let me know; I have
yet to hear of a single negative story except in the case of someone who ran
out of fluid.

Known-ice TKS is there to GET YOU OUT of icing conditions. Why in the
world
would you intentionally fly into an area where the only purpose of your
safety equipment is to get you out?

I would do this to depart and climb on top in the winter if I have a planned
trip with reported light to moderate rime icing and tops within my
airplane's capability.


Saying one should fly into actual reporting icing conditions just because
you have known-ice TKS installed is like saying I should intentionally
spin
a Cirrus because I have the safety equipment to recover from the spin
installed.

No, it's like saying I would spin a Citabria which is certified for spins.
The Citabria is certified for spins, but I would use due caution at an
appropriate altitude with appropriate training. My airplane is certified
for flight into light or moderate known icing conditions; I regularly use
that certification to climb through a layer to non-icing conditions.
Indeed, rarely is icing more than 3,000 feet thick in winter stratus
conditions and the TKS does a great job keeping the plane clean so usually
my icing exposure is no more than maybe 10 minutes in the climb since my
climb performance does not degrade in icing other than the need to conform
to the stated minimum climb airspeed in icing conditions.

Keep in mind that "known ice" for the purpose of icing certification means
"freezing temperature and visible moisture", while the icing conditions
I'm
talking about here are those that are truly known to exist (that is,
someone
has just been there and reported that ice is present).

Known icing for the purpose of icing certification means either forecast or
observed. If it is wintertime and light to moderate icing is reported by
piston airplanes climbing on top and no freezing rain is forecast, I depart
all the time in my plane and it is perfectly legal to do so. If jets are
reporting moderate icing or if anyone is reporting severe icing or if
freezing rain is reported by anyone, then that is a different story.



--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

Those who know told me.

Has anyone told you of a situation where TKS has not worked in a known-ice TKS
airplane? If so, then -- very seriously -- I would REALLY like to talk to
that pilot. I have never -- repeat never -- heard any concerns whatsoever
about TKS performance even among pilots who have clearly pushed TKS beyond
the point that is legal and appropriate. I have heard stories about people
departing in freezing rain with TKS with no problems at all. Again, I do
*NOT* advocate known-ice TKS for anything beyond a climb above light to
moderate icing conditions. However, it is helpful to know how a system
performs at the boundaries. If you have any negative information whatseover
about TKS performance in a known-ice airplane, please let me know; I have
yet to hear of a single negative story except in the case of someone who ran
out of fluid.

Known-ice TKS is there to GET YOU OUT of icing conditions. Why in the
world
would you intentionally fly into an area where the only purpose of your
safety equipment is to get you out?

I would do this to depart and climb on top in the winter if I have a planned
trip with reported light to moderate rime icing and tops within my
airplane's capability.


Saying one should fly into actual reporting icing conditions just because
you have known-ice TKS installed is like saying I should intentionally
spin
a Cirrus because I have the safety equipment to recover from the spin
installed.

No, it's like saying I would spin a Citabria which is certified for spins.
The Citabria is certified for spins, but I would use due caution at an
appropriate altitude with appropriate training. My airplane is certified
for flight into light or moderate known icing conditions; I regularly use
that certification to climb through a layer to non-icing conditions.
Indeed, rarely is icing more than 3,000 feet thick in winter stratus
conditions and the TKS does a great job keeping the plane clean so usually
my icing exposure is no more than maybe 10 minutes in the climb since my
climb performance does not degrade in icing other than the need to conform
to the stated minimum climb airspeed in icing conditions.

Keep in mind that "known ice" for the purpose of icing certification means
"freezing temperature and visible moisture", while the icing conditions
I'm
talking about here are those that are truly known to exist (that is,
someone
has just been there and reported that ice is present).

Known icing for the purpose of icing certification means either forecast or
observed. If it is wintertime and light to moderate icing is reported by
piston airplanes climbing on top and no freezing rain is forecast, I depart
all the time in my plane and it is perfectly legal to do so. If jets are
reporting moderate icing or if anyone is reporting severe icing or if
freezing rain is reported by anyone, then that is a different story.



--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

I'd be interested to read your go/no go parameters. What kinds of
summer conditions keep you on the ground?

I stay on the ground when my flight would need to penetrate more than
scattered storms, i.e. I don't fly in situations when I can get boxed in
behind me or if I need to cross frontal thunderstorms.

Often that means if I have a 1-day business trip returning in late
afternoon, I drive intead of flying because it isn't worth the worry/risk
that the afternoon storms will be too difficult to penetrate.

I don't think I'm any different than other experienced IFR pilots. When
pilots are scheduled to fly to me for IFR recurrent training who have
well-equipped airplanes, arrival delays are more common due to summer
thunderstorms than to winter icing. When I conducted a group "IFR Survival
Weekend" class a few weeks ago, pilots were concerned about thunderstorms
but wanted to be present for the whole course and therefore about 15 out of
20 drove instead of flying.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com