T-6 accident

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:


I can't either. I was dumbstruck when we heard what had happened. Ed
knew better than to do that. He was always aggressive with his approach
to aerobatics, but he knew the score, and he knew g loads.
We all assumed there was some kind of pressure involved, or perhaps a
tight time schedule. The rub of it is that all of us knew that it was
exactly this kind of thing that gets you killed.
Ed's reason for not waiting will always remain one of life's great
unanswered questions for me.



the word around was he said the he had "flown with worse" . Good lesson in
that. If someone like that can screw up what about us mere mortals?
That airplane was always immaculate. It's not like he was a shirt-tail out
kind of guy.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:
I can't either. I was dumbstruck when we heard what had happened. Ed
knew better than to do that. He was always aggressive with his approach
to aerobatics, but he knew the score, and he knew g loads.
We all assumed there was some kind of pressure involved, or perhaps a
tight time schedule. The rub of it is that all of us knew that it was
exactly this kind of thing that gets you killed.
Ed's reason for not waiting will always remain one of life's great
unanswered questions for me.



the word around was he said the he had "flown with worse" . Good lesson in
that. If someone like that can screw up what about us mere mortals?
That airplane was always immaculate. It's not like he was a shirt-tail out
kind of guy.


Bertie




"Flown with worse" in the business isn't a positive trait to posess and
can end up being a fast trip to a hole in the ground. Unfortunately in
Ed's case, it ended that way.
My job has always been to keep pilots alive in the acro environment. I
have to say that I never used Ed as a positive example. His kind of
aggression toward aerobatics was just beyond my comfort limit.

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:




"Flown with worse" in the business isn't a positive trait to posess
and can end up being a fast trip to a hole in the ground.
Unfortunately in Ed's case, it ended that way.
My job has always been to keep pilots alive in the acro environment. I
have to say that I never used Ed as a positive example. His kind of
aggression toward aerobatics was just beyond my comfort limit.


Interesting. As a kid I always thought he had it cracked. He didn't do
instruction AFAIK, but if he did I would have been there...
He used to roll inverted on takeoff as soon as he had clearance and his
flying was always pretty energetic, allright. I got to see him practice a
good bit and it was always very tidy, but in retrospect, as you say, he was
agressive compared to many. I have to say, as a young fellow I emulated a
lot of his stuff, and it was a major shock when he bought it. I suppose
your view of him would have been from the opposite end of the spectrum back
then!


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:


"Flown with worse" in the business isn't a positive trait to posess
and can end up being a fast trip to a hole in the ground.
Unfortunately in Ed's case, it ended that way.
My job has always been to keep pilots alive in the acro environment. I
have to say that I never used Ed as a positive example. His kind of
aggression toward aerobatics was just beyond my comfort limit.


Interesting. As a kid I always thought he had it cracked. He didn't do
instruction AFAIK, but if he did I would have been there...
He used to roll inverted on takeoff as soon as he had clearance and his
flying was always pretty energetic, allright. I got to see him practice a
good bit and it was always very tidy, but in retrospect, as you say, he was
agressive compared to many. I have to say, as a young fellow I emulated a
lot of his stuff, and it was a major shock when he bought it. I suppose
your view of him would have been from the opposite end of the spectrum back
then!


Bertie


I think a lot of us who come up with the "aerobatics bug" start out even
without realizing it in some cases that knowing how to fly acro and
doing it sets us apart from the "average" pilot. It's a falsely
conceived premise at best that some actually never shed .
Those who don't are usually the ones who end up dead. It's THAT simple!

The pilots who make it all the way through a career in display flying
are worth watching as they have common behavior and habit patterns worth
emulating for those considering entering this venue.

Most have common traits that are recognizable to even the untrained eye.
The pilots who last in the display acro business develop early on, an
attitude of respect for the venue that borders on a kind of fanaticism.
These are the pilots who, when tempted to do a roll on takeoff by the
local airport crowd on a Sunday morning as they get ready to go cross
country to do an air show somewhere, simply smile and respectfully
decline. It's not the place....and it's not the time. They realize that
there's a self imposed "ritual" they have to go through with themselves
before executing aerobatics at low altitude and doing low acro without
this "mental tuning up " can spell real trouble.
This is why, as the number one rule I passed on to all acro the acro
pilots, especially display pilots, who got close enough to me to hear my
voice I always stressed;
"Never.....EVER....do anything with an airplane that someone asks you to
do unless you yourself are mentally and physically prepared to do
it....AND it's YOUR CALL!!"

This sounds simple enough, but you would be absolutely amazed how easy
it is to slip into doing something with an airplane because this person
or that one is watching.
Ego and complacency are high on the list of potential killers for
aerobatic pilots.
Lord only knows what made a pilot of Ed's caliber weaken his horizontal
stabilizer to match the other weakened side, then go fly hard maneuvers
for the camera.

What is completely puzzling to me and always will remain a puzzle to me
is that most any inexperienced pilot, even a student , if
asked whether THEY would have done what Ed did that day, and flown that
airplane on that day, at that time, for that purpose, would probably
instinctively say that they wouldn't have done it.

At least in this those of us in the business of flight safety were left
a lesson to pass on to new pilots.


--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:



I think a lot of us who come up with the "aerobatics bug" start out
even without realizing it in some cases that knowing how to fly acro
and doing it sets us apart from the "average" pilot. It's a falsely
conceived premise at best that some actually never shed .
Those who don't are usually the ones who end up dead. It's THAT
simple!


I'm a bit confused as to what you mean here, unless it's that some
aerobatic pilots have notions about ourselves above our station.

The pilots who make it all the way through a career in display flying
are worth watching as they have common behavior and habit patterns
worth emulating for those considering entering this venue.

Most have common traits that are recognizable to even the untrained
eye. The pilots who last in the display acro business develop early
on, an attitude of respect for the venue that borders on a kind of
fanaticism. These are the pilots who, when tempted to do a roll on
takeoff by the local airport crowd on a Sunday morning as they get
ready to go cross country to do an air show somewhere, simply smile
and respectfully decline. It's not the place....and it's not the time.
They realize that there's a self imposed "ritual" they have to go
through with themselves before executing aerobatics at low altitude
and doing low acro without this "mental tuning up " can spell real
trouble. This is why, as the number one rule I passed on to all acro
the acro pilots, especially display pilots, who got close enough to me
to hear my voice I always stressed;
"Never.....EVER....do anything with an airplane that someone asks you
to do unless you yourself are mentally and physically prepared to do
it....AND it's YOUR CALL!!"


Hm, yes. I never thougth this through before, but it rings true. I'm
never shy about a little showing off and I think most pilots are like
that, but I never liked being cajoled into doing something but I'm
uncertain as to whether that was because I have some sort of inate
wisdom or because I'm an anarchist at heart.


This sounds simple enough, but you would be absolutely amazed how easy
it is to slip into doing something with an airplane because this
person or that one is watching.
Ego and complacency are high on the list of potential killers for
aerobatic pilots.
Lord only knows what made a pilot of Ed's caliber weaken his
horizontal stabilizer to match the other weakened side, then go fly
hard maneuvers for the camera.

Yeah, it's a funny thing about ego. Without a sizable dose you're almost
as much of a menace in any kind of high performance flying as the guy
who has to much. My own experience has been a roller coaster of over and
under confidence of decreasing intensity throughout as I found my level
of competence and it's corresponding level of confidence. These ups and
downs never stopped, only decreased in amplitue and, I believe, have led
to a habit of constant self appraisel that has served me well in just
about any flying disciplne. IOW, experiece has eventually won out but I
was lucky to have acquired it!

What is completely puzzling to me and always will remain a puzzle to
me is that most any inexperienced pilot, even a student , if
asked whether THEY would have done what Ed did that day, and flown
that airplane on that day, at that time, for that purpose, would
probably instinctively say that they wouldn't have done it.


Well, I suppose there comes a point where your knowledge allows you to
see through certain practices that are laid down for the simple minded
that can be reasonably circumvented. Problem is, a little knowledge is a
dangerous thing in a case like this. It's not like flying an airplane
with a flat battery or something like that.
in the film about your Buddy, Douglas Bader, he's credited with
repeating often something his instructor told him and that was "rules
are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools".
Trick is to live long enough to become a wise man..

Bertie

"Viperdoc" wrote in news:474364d1$0$32502
:

Several years ago there was a low time pilot in our area with a new
Commander, who crashed and died with three others on board. It turns out
that he tore the wings off while rolling the plane.

It comes down to the famous last words of "let me show you this!"




Yeah, some tit did that on the way home from Sun n Fun this year in a
Baron. First aerobatic lesson, self taught in a Baron with pax.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...27X00463&key=1
This is just a mind blowing accident. Sure you can do aerobatics in a non-
aerobatic airplane ( he had apparently become enthralled with the Twin
Beech performance at Sun n Fun) but how does someone even imagine he can
make the leap into aerobatic flight this way?


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Viperdoc" wrote in
news:474364d1$0$32502 :

Several years ago there was a low time pilot in our area with a new
Commander, who crashed and died with three others on board. It turns
out that he tore the wings off while rolling the plane.

It comes down to the famous last words of "let me show you this!"

Yeah, some tit did that on the way home from Sun n Fun this year in a
Baron. First aerobatic lesson, self taught in a Baron with pax.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...27X00463&key=1
This is just a mind blowing accident.

Wow. That pilot didn't make an isolated foolish mistake - the historical
evidence indicates he was a fool from the beginning to the end. The tragedy
is that four others died along with the fool.

Found this AOPA article on the accident with the apt title "What was he
thinking?":

http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2007/sp0707.html

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:


I think a lot of us who come up with the "aerobatics bug" start out
even without realizing it in some cases that knowing how to fly acro
and doing it sets us apart from the "average" pilot. It's a falsely
conceived premise at best that some actually never shed .
Those who don't are usually the ones who end up dead. It's THAT
simple!


I'm a bit confused as to what you mean here, unless it's that some
aerobatic pilots have notions about ourselves above our station.


It's simple really. Pilots exist for the most part as a specialized
group. Even loners are part of the "group"

By definition, flying is an acquired skill obtained through knowledge
and experience. The "group" recognizes those who can do things with an
airplane others in the group can't do. It's a natural pecking order
where the ability to perform aerobatics rates highly among many in the
group. This isn't to say that aerobatic pilots are better than others in
the group, but rather that the ability to perform aerobatics and fly
certain aircraft can be a "respected position" in the flying community.
Knowing this is practically unavoidable if one exists in the flying
community as a pilot.
It's quite natural therefore, (right or wrong), that SOME pilots
acquiring aerobatic skills tend toward envisioning themselves as being
"a step up" in the pecking order. If not recognized by an individual
pilot when and if this happens for it's potential toward the development
of false confidence, the situation can be a real problem for some
individuals.
The trick of course is for the acrobatically competent pilot to
recognize that part of the price for that "step up" in the pecking order
is a dual responsibility to accept aerobatics and the dangers associated
with them with the respect they are due and as well make every attempt
to instill that same respect in other pilots.

This is nothing more really, than a pedantic way of saying that pilots
acquiring aerobatic skills need to acquire aerobatic responsibility as
well. The two are inseparable and the first without the latter will kill
you dead. The residual of all this is that without responsibility, what
you do can influence someone else and possibly kill them dead as well.


The pilots who make it all the way through a career in display flying
are worth watching as they have common behavior and habit patterns
worth emulating for those considering entering this venue.

Most have common traits that are recognizable to even the untrained
eye. The pilots who last in the display acro business develop early
on, an attitude of respect for the venue that borders on a kind of
fanaticism. These are the pilots who, when tempted to do a roll on
takeoff by the local airport crowd on a Sunday morning as they get
ready to go cross country to do an air show somewhere, simply smile
and respectfully decline. It's not the place....and it's not the time.
They realize that there's a self imposed "ritual" they have to go
through with themselves before executing aerobatics at low altitude
and doing low acro without this "mental tuning up " can spell real
trouble. This is why, as the number one rule I passed on to all acro
the acro pilots, especially display pilots, who got close enough to me
to hear my voice I always stressed;
"Never.....EVER....do anything with an airplane that someone asks you
to do unless you yourself are mentally and physically prepared to do
it....AND it's YOUR CALL!!"


Hm, yes. I never thought this through before, but it rings true. I'm
never shy about a little showing off and I think most pilots are like
that, but I never liked being cajoled into doing something but I'm
uncertain as to whether that was because I have some sort of innate
wisdom or because I'm an anarchist at heart.

We'll have to share a few Jack Daniels' sometime and discuss this in
more depth
:-)

This sounds simple enough, but you would be absolutely amazed how easy
it is to slip into doing something with an airplane because this
person or that one is watching.
Ego and complacency are high on the list of potential killers for
aerobatic pilots.
Lord only knows what made a pilot of Ed's caliber weaken his
horizontal stabilizer to match the other weakened side, then go fly
hard maneuvers for the camera.

Yeah, it's a funny thing about ego. Without a sizable dose you're almost
as much of a menace in any kind of high performance flying as the guy
who has too much. My own experience has been a roller coaster of over and
under confidence of decreasing intensity throughout as I found my level
of competence and it's corresponding level of confidence. These ups and
downs never stopped, only decreased in amplitude and, I believe, have led
to a habit of constant self appraisal that has served me well in just
about any flying discipline. IOW, experience has eventually won out but I
was lucky to have acquired it!

This is a perfectly normal process. I went through it as well.
(Remember, I probably own the most widely publicized buzz job in
aviation history :-)
The trick is to recognize it early on and control it which I'm sure both
of us managed to do.



What is completely puzzling to me and always will remain a puzzle to
me is that most any inexperienced pilot, even a student , if
asked whether THEY would have done what Ed did that day, and flown
that airplane on that day, at that time, for that purpose, would
probably instinctively say that they wouldn't have done it.


Well, I suppose there comes a point where your knowledge allows you to
see through certain practices that are laid down for the simple minded
that can be reasonably circumvented. Problem is, a little knowledge is a
dangerous thing in a case like this. It's not like flying an airplane
with a flat battery or something like that.

As it turned out, this was unfortunately true.


in the film about your Buddy, Douglas Bader, he's credited with
repeating often something his instructor told him and that was "rules
are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools".
Trick is to live long enough to become a wise man..

Bertie


Douglas did have a way with words. Once to a group of paraplegic
children he visited in a hospital;

“Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you can't do this or that.
That's nonsense. Make up your mind you'll never use crutches or a stick,
then have a go at everything. Go to school, join in all the games you
can. Go anywhere you want to. But never, never let them persuade you
that things are too difficult or impossible.”

Ya gotta love the guy!! :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Jim Logajan wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Viperdoc" wrote in
news:474364d1$0$32502 :

Several years ago there was a low time pilot in our area with a new
Commander, who crashed and died with three others on board. It turns
out that he tore the wings off while rolling the plane.

It comes down to the famous last words of "let me show you this!"
Yeah, some tit did that on the way home from Sun n Fun this year in a
Baron. First aerobatic lesson, self taught in a Baron with pax.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...27X00463&key=1
This is just a mind blowing accident.

Wow. That pilot didn't make an isolated foolish mistake - the historical
evidence indicates he was a fool from the beginning to the end. The tragedy
is that four others died along with the fool.

Found this AOPA article on the accident with the apt title "What was he
thinking?":

http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2007/sp0707.html

This is almost always the case with these incidents. It's seldom a one
shot deal decided on the spur of the moment. Many of the pilots caughtup
in these things have a "history". Many times it's just that old; "I
could be Bob Hoover if only I had the chance".
Unfortunately, these people never quite realize until it's way too late
that the word "chance" should really be read as "experience"

--
Dudley Henriques

On Nov 20, 4:28 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote :



I think a lot of us who come up with the "aerobatics bug" start out
even without realizing it in some cases that knowing how to fly acro
and doing it sets us apart from the "average" pilot. It's a falsely
conceived premise at best that some actually never shed .
Those who don't are usually the ones who end up dead. It's THAT
simple!

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean here, unless it's that some
aerobatic pilots have notions about ourselves above our station.





The pilots who make it all the way through a career in display flying
are worth watching as they have common behavior and habit patterns
worth emulating for those considering entering this venue.

Most have common traits that are recognizable to even the untrained
eye. The pilots who last in the display acro business develop early
on, an attitude of respect for the venue that borders on a kind of
fanaticism. These are the pilots who, when tempted to do a roll on
takeoff by the local airport crowd on a Sunday morning as they get
ready to go cross country to do an air show somewhere, simply smile
and respectfully decline. It's not the place....and it's not the time.
They realize that there's a self imposed "ritual" they have to go
through with themselves before executing aerobatics at low altitude
and doing low acro without this "mental tuning up " can spell real
trouble. This is why, as the number one rule I passed on to all acro
the acro pilots, especially display pilots, who got close enough to me
to hear my voice I always stressed;
"Never.....EVER....do anything with an airplane that someone asks you
to do unless you yourself are mentally and physically prepared to do
it....AND it's YOUR CALL!!"

Hm, yes. I never thougth this through before, but it rings true. I'm
never shy about a little showing off and I think most pilots are like
that, but I never liked being cajoled into doing something but I'm
uncertain as to whether that was because I have some sort of inate
wisdom or because I'm an anarchist at heart.



This sounds simple enough, but you would be absolutely amazed how easy
it is to slip into doing something with an airplane because this
person or that one is watching.
Ego and complacency are high on the list of potential killers for
aerobatic pilots.
Lord only knows what made a pilot of Ed's caliber weaken his
horizontal stabilizer to match the other weakened side, then go fly
hard maneuvers for the camera.

Yeah, it's a funny thing about ego. Without a sizable dose you're almost
as much of a menace in any kind of high performance flying as the guy
who has to much. My own experience has been a roller coaster of over and
under confidence of decreasing intensity throughout as I found my level
of competence and it's corresponding level of confidence. These ups and
downs never stopped, only decreased in amplitue and, I believe, have led
to a habit of constant self appraisel that has served me well in just
about any flying disciplne. IOW, experiece has eventually won out but I
was lucky to have acquired it!



What is completely puzzling to me and always will remain a puzzle to
me is that most any inexperienced pilot, even a student , if
asked whether THEY would have done what Ed did that day, and flown
that airplane on that day, at that time, for that purpose, would
probably instinctively say that they wouldn't have done it.

Well, I suppose there comes a point where your knowledge allows you to
see through certain practices that are laid down for the simple minded
that can be reasonably circumvented. Problem is, a little knowledge is a
dangerous thing in a case like this. It's not like flying an airplane
with a flat battery or something like that.
in the film about your Buddy, Douglas Bader, he's credited with
repeating often something his instructor told him and that was "rules
are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools".
Trick is to live long enough to become a wise man..

Bertie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I feel that the IAC competition environment and practice for
competition is a relatively safe way to do aerobatics. The reasons
a
1) when you practice a contest sequence, it is not impromptu, but
rather, it is a carefully planned flight;
2) the contest sequences are looked over by your peers (or your
betters) for sanity and safety;
3) you have a reasonable hard deck appropriate to your level of
equipment and experience;
4) you know that breaking the hard deck at a contest gets you major
penalties and/or disqualification;
5) nobody ever wins by flying lower than the other guy or by giving
the judges a scare.

When I start messing around with non-competition figures, I move up at
least 1K ft, depending on what it is. When I do these, it is for me,
not for anybody on the ground who might be looking. I do these
figures one at a time with repositioning between them.

The statistics look pretty good too. Nobody has died doing an
aerobatic sequence in front of judges here in the US in a very long
time. Practice accidents happen occassionally but probably due to
breaking one or more of the above rules.

10's,
K l e i n