First glider Nimbus 2 ?

On 1/4/21 3:30 AM, krasw wrote:
These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low speed, nothing else. Their handling in the air is not good and on the ground it is just awful. You will fly less because of this. I usually fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew one summer mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any other type. You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only with lower airspeed duirng glider and taking few more climbs. With a glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun. Saying that thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded walls. There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.


The OP was clear that he wanted "airchair soaring" doing 300-500K tasks.
Apparently he thinks he can buy a carefree experience with long wings.
Maybe his expectations aren't realistic. He also thinks it's a
particularly pretty glider, that shouldn't be a purchase consideration.

Eric Greenwell schrieb am Montag, 4. Januar 2021 um 14:30:19 UTC+1:
The original poster is looking at a N2, not an N2C. Is there a significant difference in the
thermalling and the general handling of the two gliders?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

The Nimbus 2 series had many changes during the quite short production run. Some are mentioned in the TN/AD list on the Schempp-Hirth website, additional details were given in a Schempp-Hirth book published in the 80s ("Vom Wolf zum Discus"). For example, the N2B introduced a new mixer for flap/aileron deflections (similar to Janus) and changed the all-flying elevator to a conventional one. This should make quite a difference in handling.

Christoph

On Mon, 04 Jan 2021 07:43:22 -0700, kinsell wrote:

On 1/4/21 3:30 AM, krasw wrote:
These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low
speed, nothing else. Their handling in the air is not good and on the
ground it is just awful. You will fly less because of this. I usually
fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew one summer
mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any
other type. You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only
with lower airspeed duirng glider and taking few more climbs. With a
glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun. Saying that
thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded
walls. There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.


The OP was clear that he wanted "airchair soaring" doing 300-500K tasks.
Apparently he thinks he can buy a carefree experience with long wings.
Maybe his expectations aren't realistic. He also thinks it's a
particularly pretty glider, that shouldn't be a purchase consideration.

The OP will be used to good thermal climbs and relatively low XC speeds
from time spent he's spent in an SZD Junior. I know them well. My club
owns two for new solo pilots to fly when transitioning to single seaters,
and I got my Silver in one of them.

Now I fly a Std Libelle and would agree with the nice things others have
said about its thermalling ability. There's very few gliders resident at
my club that can out-climb either a Libelle or a Junior, especially in a
narrow thermal. IMO both are nice to fly though the Libelle is smoother
flying and quite a bit faster XC due to a better high speed polar, though
both Libelle and Junior have the same Vne.

About the Nimbus 2: here's all I know. I once helped an owner put his N2
back in its trailer when I was visiting Sutton Bank. He used a rope and
pulley to slide the wings into what seemed quite a long trailer: I
thought that was a clever trick. That's the only N2 I've seen.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 8:58:17 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Mon, 04 Jan 2021 07:43:22 -0700, kinsell wrote:

On 1/4/21 3:30 AM, krasw wrote:
These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low
speed, nothing else. Their handling in the air is not good and on the
ground it is just awful. You will fly less because of this. I usually
fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew one summer
mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any
other type. You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only
with lower airspeed duirng glider and taking few more climbs. With a
glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun. Saying that
thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded
walls. There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.


The OP was clear that he wanted "airchair soaring" doing 300-500K tasks..
Apparently he thinks he can buy a carefree experience with long wings.
Maybe his expectations aren't realistic. He also thinks it's a
particularly pretty glider, that shouldn't be a purchase consideration.
The OP will be used to good thermal climbs and relatively low XC speeds
from time spent he's spent in an SZD Junior. I know them well. My club
owns two for new solo pilots to fly when transitioning to single seaters,
and I got my Silver in one of them.

Now I fly a Std Libelle and would agree with the nice things others have
said about its thermalling ability. There's very few gliders resident at
my club that can out-climb either a Libelle or a Junior, especially in a
narrow thermal. IMO both are nice to fly though the Libelle is smoother
flying and quite a bit faster XC due to a better high speed polar, though
both Libelle and Junior have the same Vne.

About the Nimbus 2: here's all I know. I once helped an owner put his N2
back in its trailer when I was visiting Sutton Bank. He used a rope and
pulley to slide the wings into what seemed quite a long trailer: I
thought that was a clever trick. That's the only N2 I've seen.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
I know virtually nothing about soaring in Poland except what friends have shared. However, I did have 10 1/2 years of UK soaring, ending in the mid-1990's. My experience was that a club member should consult with the chief instructor before buying a glider. If the glider was considered too advanced or complex for the member's level of experience or skill, they wouldn't be permitted to fly it until they exhibited that proficiency. I don't now if the same is true in Poland, but Piotr needs to have that talk perhaps. Some RAF gliders even had plates indicating minimum PIC time required to fly certain gliders. Perhaps things are different now.

Any comment Martin?

Frank Whiteley

On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 3:02:52 AM UTC-8, gregv wrote:
Le lundi 4 janvier 2021 Ã* 11:30:06 UTC+1, krasw a écrit :
These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low speed, nothing else. Their handling in the air is not good and on the ground it is just awful. You will fly less because of this. I usually fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew one summer mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any other type. You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only with lower airspeed duirng glider and taking few more climbs. With a glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun. Saying that thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded walls. There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.
I own a N2C since years, and I also fly other gliders (mainly discus 2, duodiscus, ls-4), I fly in Alpine area. I disagree when you say thermalling is not fun with The N2C, actually it is the most fun thing to do! You can litteraly outclimb every other ship, handling is superb, light and precise controls, yes you have to manage your feets and you loose 2 seconds when doing -45/+45 but is it an issue? When flying cross country I am faster than a duodiscus in every aspect. With 200L water, I feel unstoppable.

Consider the LAK-12. The Russian Sport Gliding Federation used to put newly licensed pilots into them, for XC training. The rationale was that they wanted to hook pilots on XC. They found that putting pilots into 30:1 gliders resulted in many landouts and discouraged pilots from flying away from the field. The 48:1 12 allowed pilots to successfully complete longer and longer XC tasks, especially with 200 liters of water. The clubs had well organized retrieve teams and plenty of large fields to choose from. They are a piece of cake to fly, can be left rigged all season and they're cheap (15k us$). Good decision making can mean that outlandings only occur at aero retrievable airports.

On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 12:11:35 PM UTC-8, kenward1000 wrote:
On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 3:02:52 AM UTC-8, gregv wrote:
Le lundi 4 janvier 2021 Ã* 11:30:06 UTC+1, krasw a écrit :
These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low speed, nothing else. Their handling in the air is not good and on the ground it is just awful. You will fly less because of this. I usually fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew one summer mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any other type. You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only with lower airspeed duirng glider and taking few more climbs. With a glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun. Saying that thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded walls. There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.
I own a N2C since years, and I also fly other gliders (mainly discus 2, duodiscus, ls-4), I fly in Alpine area. I disagree when you say thermalling is not fun with The N2C, actually it is the most fun thing to do! You can litteraly outclimb every other ship, handling is superb, light and precise controls, yes you have to manage your feets and you loose 2 seconds when doing -45/+45 but is it an issue? When flying cross country I am faster than a duodiscus in every aspect. With 200L water, I feel unstoppable.
Consider the LAK-12. The Russian Sport Gliding Federation used to put newly licensed pilots into them, for XC training. The rationale was that they wanted to hook pilots on XC. They found that putting pilots into 30:1 gliders resulted in many landouts and discouraged pilots from flying away from the field. The 48:1 12 allowed pilots to successfully complete longer and longer XC tasks, especially with 200 liters of water. The clubs had well organized retrieve teams and plenty of large fields to choose from. They are a piece of cake to fly, can be left rigged all season and they're cheap (15k us$). Good decision making can mean that outlandings only occur at aero retrievable airports.

I reread the original post and noticed that the glider Piotr is talking about is an N2, not an N2C that I saw in a latter post. Knowing this, I definitely recommend that Piotr pass on this glider; he simply doesn't have the experience to handle a glider of this type.

Tom

On Mon, 04 Jan 2021 10:08:10 -0800, Frank Whiteley wrote:

Any comment Martin?

Thats pretty much how my club works. Get permission from the committees
to keep a glider on the field and, if they and the CFI are happy, do it.

However, the closest I've been to Poland was Sazena in the Czech
Republic. I a bunch of us were camping on the glider field there, because
it was hosting the 1997 Free Flight Model World Champs.

Learning to fly full-size gliders was still 4 years in the future for me,
but I did notice a well cared for Antonov A-15 in the hangar. I realise
I'm unlikely ever to have the chance to fly one, but its definitely on my
bucket list!

Besides, who can resist a good-looking all-metal V-tailed glider where
the trim control is a length of bungee, its ends attached to the bottom
corners of the panel and hooked to one of a row of hooks on the front of
the stick! As far as I can tell, its performance isn't a lot different to
a Std Libelle. Martin Simons quotes best glide 40:1, an ad for the one I
saw at Sazena claims 37.5:1 at 95 km/h - my Libelle is about 37:1 at
52kts (95 km/h), but the A-15 is a lot heavier at 320 kg.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Originally Posted by Piotr Mis

piÄ…tek, 1 stycznia 2021 oÂ*20:14:42 UTC+1 2G napisaÅ‚(a):
On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 4:43:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 09:11:18 UTC+1 Surge napisał(a):
On Tuesday, 29 December 2020 at 22:07:01 UTC+2, wrote:
Hi Surge
I would be happy to learn how you find your decision of buying that Nimbus 5 years ago from the perspective of those 5 years. Do you still own it? I am curious because I am now facing the same dilemma of low time pilot going for Nimbus 2. If you are somewhere out there I would be glad to hear from you:
Hi piotrm
I still own the Nimbus 2 although I haven't flown it that much due to life and work getting in the way. I'm still happy with the glider. My cautions would mainly be around ground handling and aerotow (I haven't winched it yet). I provided a general update in 2018 if you missed it. You're welcome to ask me specific questions otherwise.
What I would add is:

Rigging:
Try to keep it hangared if possible - I would not recommend rigging it every weekend unless you're young and fit and have time on your hands. I keep mine hangared with the tips off (GA size T hangar) but even that is a bit of a pain since I'm quite particular regarding cleaning and re-greasing all the pins, sockets and L'Hotellier aileron connections at the tip mounting point every time I fly it. These parts are exposed to dirt every time the wing tips are removed. However it is not a difficult chore and I do everything myself using a DIY one man, wing rigger. Total time to rig, clean, DI and tow to the launch point is about 2 hours. Cleaning and rigging the wing tips takes me about an hour.

Take off:
Make sure you start the take off role with full negative flaps to obtain aileron authority early.
When flying empty be ready for the glider to leap off the deck when shifting gently to +4 degrees flaps. Even with trim almost fully forward and my CofG fore of centre, she likes to get airborne very quickly. I'm sure it would not be so when using water ballast but I haven't flown with ballast yet.

Landing:
Go to full negative flaps during roll out else aileron authority degrades very rapidly. I almost ground looped once because I forgot to use negative flaps during roll out and there was a light tail wind.
Don't forget to use landing flaps - they add a significant amount of drag and lift compared with +6 degrees. I landed with approach flaps once (+4 degrees) and I ended up using about 450 meters of runway before I came to a stop - lots of energy to dissipate.

Aerotow:
She's slippery so it's quite easy to get slack in the tow rope in turbulent air even in low tow position with +6 degrees flap. Be ready to use the airbrakes to prevent rope slack.
Hi Surge
thanks for your reply I really apprecite it as I am getting closer and closer to making a final decision about the purchase. I am glad to see that you do not regret your decision, still enjoy the glider and in general I find your words quite reasurring. I am also relieved to see that you did not experience any particularly dangerous situation (except that near ground loop landing maybe). My ultimate aim is exactly the same as you descrbied it starting this thread: medium distance relaxed cross conutry 300-500 km rather than blasting around 200 km/h and fighting in competitions. As for the storage I am also planning to keep her in a hangar, so handling issue should not be much of a problem. Some dust covers are included in the package and that may help to protect pins and sockets from the dirt.

Perhaps one of my biggest concerns are outlandings. Since I am inexperienced (70 hours on gliders, 100 hours on powered planes) I am not planning oulandings any time soon and I guess having 3 airfields almost within the distance of Nimbus2 49 L/D I don't run much risk of a casulal landing. Even if I happend to have one, the area of Poland where I live is covered with large, smooth fields.
Is landing roll really significantly longer than a "regular" club 15-meter like Astir for example? (assuming that landing procedure is executed fawlessly)
Have you ever tried to use tail parachute on landing?

Did you find anything worth emphasizing about handling the ship during the thermalling/cruise?

From other advice on Nimbus 2 which I got I assume that challenges of flying a glider of this kind are lying more in mental areas (concentration/focus/discipline) rather than area of pure flying technique. I guess my experience of PPL pilot may help here (flaps adjustments, engine rpm adjusments on landings/take-offs etc).
Do you know any place where I could find Nimbus 2 pilot operating handbook? I was trying to find in the internet but the best what I found was Mini Nimbus POH.

best regards
Piotr
Hi Piotr,

Considering your experience and budget I recommend that you get an ASW19 or a Standard Cirrus. Landing the N2C under normal circumstances is a handful - an outlanding multiplies all of those issues.

Tom


Hi Tom

thanks for reply, each opinion/advice is valuable. I managed to get response from the originator of that thread (Surge) who bought Nimbus 2 having around 50 hours of experience. He still owns that glider, flies her happily and nothing bad happend. What I find to be crucial is risk awareness and "risk management". People who are advising me against the choice of Nimbus point out to potential risks and this is very valuable. People who are advising in favour point out how to avoid the risk. I guess you are probably a glider pilot with a lot of experience so do not feel competent to argue from the position of newbee, but I would be interested to learn what is your opinion on a few conclusions I draw:

1. Many people are warning that outlandigs in Nimbus2 kind of glider are much riskier. But isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5 m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ? Even from my very limited experience of flying SZD-30 Pirat (L/D 31, sink 0,7m/s) and SZD-51 Junior (L/D 36, sink 0,6m/s) during my SPL training I could see that I was able to stay longer in the air in Junior than in Pirat in the same conditions. I am planning to avoid outlandings anyway during the first 2 years of my "SPL licenced" flying, so I guess that L/D 50 glider should rather help in it? There are a couple of clubs within a distance of 50-70 km from each other in my area so with an average cloud base during the season of c.a. 1500 meters A.G.L. I could assume regular landings on airfields with pretty much certainty, and even in case of an outlanding, there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.
Just as Surge, I am not planning to fly in adverse conditions in the beginning (stron winds)

2. Technical difficulties of flying (especially take-offs and landings) - this seems similar to my motorbike experience. Shortly after getting a licence for a motorbike I decided to buy a vintage Ducati Monster 1000cc bike (it was based on high performance racing bike constructed in the 70-ties) which most people warned me against as too dangerous for a beginner and suggested some 600cc with easier handling. I bought Monster however and having all those warnings in the back of my head I drove as safe as possible, avoided speeding etc and nothing bad happened. I have been driving it for a couple of years now and enjoyed it a lot. Paradoxically, it maybe even contributed to improvement of safety of my riding because being aware of higher risks I was seeking advice of more experienced, reading a lot on the biking technique, proper speed/breaking management etc

3. Practical considerations - glider which I am planning to buy is well maintained and has 2300 h to fly to the next service life extension, at the asking price close to that, which most of 15meter club ships have, which are usually sold with between 100 h - 1000 h of flying left until next service life extension.

and besides, I find open gliders just splendid with their slender wings... Although this subject has probably never been raised in this forum, to me, part of the satisfaction of being an owner of a glider comes from the fact of owning/flying a beautiful work of art, which, I believe, the glider is. I guess that explains a lot

best regards
Piotr

I've found that extra performance first and foremost gives you the ability to land out further from home

:-) Colin

I like Dan's comments regarding having the right attitude and aptitude and flying conservatively.
If money is not an issue then an older 15m ship is probably going to be a better idea if you plan to fly aggressively. I don't compete so flying conservative 3 to 5 hours flights (300 to 500km) on nice days suites me just fine. If I wanted to fly aggressively I would not have bought the Nimbus 2.

I chose the Nimbus 2 for various reasons:
1. There was nothing available with a 40+:1 L/D within my budget. ASW20's were selling for 3 to 4 times the price and club single seaters were not always available and often had a waiting queue which meant long cross country flights on nice days were not possible.
2. I wanted to have 100% ownership in a glider which I know no one else has broken, mis-rigged, etc. without my knowledge. I saw club gliders being abused or landed hard and then hangared for the next person to fly so safety became a motivating factor.
3. The used glider market in my area is very small with limited demand so purchasing something like an Astir G102 and then being unable to sell it later to upgrade to a higher performance glider wasn't an option.
4. I have long legs and the Nimbus 2 is the only glider I've flown which has a long cockpit I fit in comfortably. Getting cramps in my ankle and calf muscles and having an aching lower back after an hour of flying single Astirs was no longer enjoyable. My long legs ruled out older, affordable 15m ships like Astirs, ASW15, ASW19.
5. The area I fly in has large fields (500m to 1500m long) and often with shorter grass crops so outlandings are less of a risk. That allowed me to remove the tail chute to avoid the "will it deploy when I need it" and "accidental deployment" scenarios. I have the single panel Schempp-Hirth airbrakes so approach control is adequate but not great. If you need to outland in fields less than 500m with obstacles on approach then I would not recommend the Nimbus 2. Fiddling with a tail chute which doesn't want to deploy while trying to outland in a small field is not the sort of risk I want to take..

Each individual has different circumstances, needs and abilities. The Nimbus 2 is not what I would regard as a "sweet ship" so take the advice about the ground handling and less ideal properties seriously before making a decision. One of the other pilots in the club bought a Nimbus 2M and his experience has not been great at all. Having the CofG near the aft limits probably played a large part in that experience.
Have you actually flown a Nimbus 2? I suggest you organise a test flight before making the purchase. Maybe you can organise a dual in something with an all flying elevator like a Janus first.

Here is a copy of my Nimbus 2 Flight and Service Manual as requested.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4a...w?usp=drivesdk