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Vermont Fatalities Today



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 3rd 18, 02:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default Vermont Fatalities Today

2G wrote on 9/2/2018 2:31 PM:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:40:09 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 30, 2018 at 1:58:13 PM UTC-4, Retting wrote:
Bernie Carris checked me out in the 32 and I don’t recall it being the monster portrayed on this thread. It was bit of a ‘truck’, but I enjoyed flying it, giving rides in it.
And I bet Don Post, who I do not know , was an experience pilot. What ever the cause, I’m reminded of a great article in Soaring on the subject of cascading events leading to an accident, and how important for the pilot to recognize and stop the progression. The writer was also a Doctor who has written several safety related articles. Would someone find and post a link. I would like to read it again.
This may have nothing to do with this accident, I am sadden and sorry to all involved, the families.
R


R,
You are correct, cascading events frequently cause serious accidents. One killed the last FBO who operated out of our base of Operations in Plymouth MA. in which he was doing a BFR in a powered Blanik sitting on the right side of the ship, teaching the owner of a powered Blanik how to make power off landings, not using the glider runways we put in at PYM that had 1,000 foot displaced thresholds, on a day when the wind shear produced by a Buzzards Bay Sea Breeze front was significantly stronger than normal, the applicant making his first power off landing using the power runway instead of the gli

....
red to help to wash out pilots in iron curtain country air forces. What I don't
have the time to bring up were the other issues introduced by FAA Belgium during
the certification process that included leaving on a bungy tow hook that had no
release and looked more like a Schweitzer tow hook than the actual tow hook, this
problem only causing one ship to get totaled that was sold by another dealer (we
removed the clips from these tow hooks on the ships we sold).

Steve Fried


Steve,

You must be setting some sort of record for long sentences. One of them broke the meter at 293 words. Consider shortening them and your posts will be MUCH more readable.

Tom


Ditto! More paragraphs, too.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf
  #22  
Old September 3rd 18, 03:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default Vermont Fatalities Today

On Sunday, September 2, 2018 at 2:31:28 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:40:09 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 30, 2018 at 1:58:13 PM UTC-4, Retting wrote:
Bernie Carris checked me out in the 32 and I don’t recall it being the monster portrayed on this thread. It was bit of a ‘truck’, but I enjoyed flying it, giving rides in it.
And I bet Don Post, who I do not know , was an experience pilot. What ever the cause, I’m reminded of a great article in Soaring on the subject of cascading events leading to an accident, and how important for the pilot to recognize and stop the progression. The writer was also a Doctor who has written several safety related articles. Would someone find and post a link. I would like to read it again.
This may have nothing to do with this accident, I am sadden and sorry to all involved, the families.
R


R,
You are correct, cascading events frequently cause serious accidents. One killed the last FBO who operated out of our base of Operations in Plymouth MA. in which he was doing a BFR in a powered Blanik sitting on the right side of the ship, teaching the owner of a powered Blanik how to make power off landings, not using the glider runways we put in at PYM that had 1,000 foot displaced thresholds, on a day when the wind shear produced by a Buzzards Bay Sea Breeze front was significantly stronger than normal, the applicant making his first power off landing using the power runway instead of the glider runway (the last glider FBO at PYM didn't own a towplane so he was using a power glider instead, and the BFR candidate feeling comfortable in the pattern while setting up for his base turn possibly because he always had the power to use if he needed to and therefore never feeling particularly bad getting too far down wind which is the situation he had worked the ship into partly because the instructor pilot could not see the runway to the ships left from the right seat, and not getting a good view of the situation until the glider turned base, by which time it was too late the three cascading problems being wrong runway, heavy shear on final and check pilot not being able to spot the problem until it was too late, all coming into play, killing the FBO but not the BFR candidate, and if the FBO had simply chosen to continue using the glider grass strip at PYM making a normal high approach on this day he would have been able to land in the 1,000 foot grass strip short of the taxiway we always landed over on 24. We had two accidents involving tow pilots not managing L-19 flaps properly, the first situation involved a tow pilot who neglected to raise the flaps after landing for a 2-32 (the "Blue Canoe" that was used at Franconia when Jon Putnam ran it) departure,leaving them in the normal position for a 2-33 launch and a tow out at 55 mph, this mistake causing a 2-32 spin in which the front seat passenger had two broken ankles and the instructor pilot no injury. The instructor pilot sitting in the rear seat feeling uncomfortable being towed aloft at 55 mph, ended up in low tow position and being partly pulled up by the L-19, which can occur today often with ships carrying water and deciding at mid field to abort and rather than landing straight ahead he instead attempt a 180 from about 100 feet that resulted in a wing down cart wheel in which the right wing collapsed because it hit a taxiway that crushed it like a beer can that was followed by a nose contact with the taxiway that was much less severe than if the taxiway was not the point of contact. This by the way, was not the only spin in I know about with similar consequences in which a metal glider (an L-13 Blanik) spun in during take off that resulted in non-fatal injuries to the front seat passenger because the spin terminated in a wing down wing crushing event on a macadam taxiway, again in the middle of an airport, being flown by the "FBO of the year" at this field who had never flown a Blanik before and being unaware of how effective the trim of a Blanik is or that it was set back, took off like a home sick angel, the latter event in some instances resulting in the towplane not being able to pull its tail down to generate a high enough angle of attack to take off which can end up generating injuries to the tow pilot, but in this case and several others that I am too familiar with, the tow pilot, not being able to pull the tail down to take off simply pulled the release, and on three occasions that I am familiar with, ended up killing a total of four people in gliders and severely injuring a fifth.

Like many glider FBOs, sooner or later, you come to believe that your main task is essentially baby sitting, not only your customers, but your CFIGs as well: in the 16 years that my wife and I ran FBOs in New England using Plymouth as our base of operations and in which we also operated out of four airports in Northern New England that included North Conway and Franconia NH, as well as Sugarbush and Morrisville Stowe in Vermont, we taught 1,000 people to fly gliders and single engine land aircraft producing many airline captains who are now retiring, two AE professors at MIT, a famous children's book author, and even a glider pilot Marc Ramsey, who has flown several 1,000 KM flights, not to mention, Dale masters, who gave me an aural test on I think his commercial glider check ride, that was just as off beat as the articles he writes for Soaring today. Now, in the process we had a single deliberate suicide in a sailplane and produced a single CFIG who eventually turned out to be one of those pilots that everyone knows one of his stunts is going to be his last, which it was. However, during these 26 FBO years, we knew 20 people to at least say hello to, who died in power planes, and over that same period knew only four glider pilots, one of whom I attempted to counsel with one of my best friends in the movement, Raouf Ismail (the founder of Cambridge Aero Instruments) who had a part time employee who was a junior at MIT and we both observed making a very slow landing (just above stall speed) in a Ventus B he had rebuilt when he worked for Klaus Holigaus (who I also knew) and who died three days later on a day when Ted Falk an experienced context pilot flying on the same day that David Shapiro spun in about four miles from Sugarbush on a day without wave but with very violent rotor to say the least decided soon after getting off tow, that winning a regionals was not worth risking his life, and pulled out the brakes and landed carrying adequate pattern airspeed to compensate for the rotors he accurately predicted were sitting right over the airport, landed and put his ship away. To get a good idea about how bitchy making landings in the mountains can be, at a site (Sugarbush) where its possible to get a low point at 2500 feet in the primary rotor with the airport sitting only 900 feet below this altitude and the secondary rotor right above the airport and which on a single day when John MaCone who pioneered the Sugarbush Warren airport, had every one of his polyethylene ropes break on a great wave day forcing him to replace them with nylon the following day. To see just how bitchy the rotors in Vermont can be (which are not nearly as bitchy as the Mount Washington rotor can be) read David Nadler's description of the 86 Sugarbush Regionals at which there was another glider fatality, and in which two pilots attempting high speed finishes attempted to pull up on final and the down burst was so strong they could not, both essentially spinning in with no injuries. Again, airspeed is crucial on some days, and flying our 2-32s at the indicated airspeeds that Jim Doyle and Roy McMaster dictated to me to use, flying out of an 1800 foot field in Nashua, that never presented any spot landing problems, and like one of my airline captains who worked for us for many years and who would replace me as an FAA designee after we sold out in 1982 told me, the 2-32 flying at 80 mph felt just like a DC-9.
So why not fly 2-32 approaches that will guarantee that you will not spin in on the horse farm that sits right next to Sugarbush airport that David Nadler describes here.

http://www.nadler.com/public/Nadler_...g_May_1987.pdf

We are still in shock over the loss of Postie. Don was a very experienced pilot who often flew his Stemme out to Nevada and back. And he was a great FBO and a dear friend for many years who was the third FBO to take over a gliderport that we were hired by the state to run in 1978, and where we built a hangar so that winter power operations would be possible, that right now, the state of Vermont has been attempting to put out of business! In 2013 we were told by the head of Vermont Aeronautics that after 2014 when they would spend $4M redoing the power runway, we could no longer be able to use the glider turf operating area that I originally obtained waivers for in 1978 from what then was the Portland GADO. And sure enough, after the 2014 work, we discovered that all of the issues that appeared after the 1984 runway work, re-appeared, along with the almost complete elimination of what is called the ROFA (the Runway Object Free Area) that starts at the boundary of the RSA (Runway Safety Area) that in the case of Morrisville Stowe starts at the macadam runway and extends the 37.5 feet to the ROFA, the RSA and ROFA often being used as a glider turf operating area, that except for 250 feet, did not exist, as a pair of 1,000 foot long ditches that were 10 feet in width and three to four feet deep ended being crucially placed, at the RSA ROFA boundary, and in other regions of the glider operating area, were left unairworthy either not being mowed or containing D8 tracks. These 1,000 foot ditches that were supposedly needed for drainage (MVL is essentially sitting on a gravel pit), and were added by the ANR (agency of natural resources) whose first victim was a PA-11 whose pilot knew about them and on his way to being blown into the East side ditch, hit full brakes and flipped over. Now, maybe one of the reasons I am so irritated with the state of things, is the fact that we can't get the local FSDO to come out and even look at these damn things, that anyone who has ever seen them, immediately thinks they are looking at tank traps.

Finally, Don, like Peter Fuss and me, also owned an ASH-26E.

Eric, my approximate statistics on first flights with dive brakes not locked, came from a point in time many years ago, when I sat on the ASH-26E site, and as I remember it, after admitting it happened to me on my first tow (the ship I bought had two flights in its log book and on these two flights the owner who used to fly out to California to fly with Dale (Masters) was scared enough for the first owner to put it back in the trailer which he then stuck in a hangar for two years) in which I didn't yet trust the engine and being my first flight, would have probably still taken a tow, the problem being the sealing pressure of the dive brakes on my ship which made it feel as if the brakes were locked when they were not and which I discussed with Eric at the time, and after mentioning it on the ASH-26E site was amazed at how many other pilots had the same problem on their first flights, one of which resulted in an accident. This problem is not really a problem of the ASH-26E, like the landing gear that Dick Johnson needed 12 tries to retract, these are features of what is a really superb sailplane. Higher performance gliders with L/Ds approaching 50 or more, like the ASH-25 that I just picked up so I could give my grandchildren rides, has characteristics like those of the ASH-26E that are unique to them that have to be learned thoroughly, but it certainly helps if the ship you are moving into next comes from the same vendor, as at least the controls in the cockpit will remain very familiar, which will mean you can employ them by what the FAA calls by wrote, which means the first time you go for the flaps to pull it from slot 2 to slot 4, and you end up pulling the brake instead, similar to the Blanik L-13 problem, you are so familiar with the ship, that you instantly know precisely what you did wrong, and being careful to instantly lock the brake, move your left hand up to the flap and ease them back into slot 4, climb position, automatically, by wrote, without even thinking or taking your eyes off the ASI and tachometer. That this didn't happen to the three ships Blaniks we sold our first year and came back soon thereafter whose CFIGs ignored our warning to not use the flaps, and to leave your hand on the brakes, is not all that surprising, many clubs then had CFIGs who did not have anytime in flapped ships and it just so happens that the flap and dive brake handles were deliberately colored to help to wash out pilots in iron curtain country air forces. What I don't have the time to bring up were the other issues introduced by FAA Belgium during the certification process that included leaving on a bungy tow hook that had no release and looked more like a Schweitzer tow hook than the actual tow hook, this problem only causing one ship to get totaled that was sold by another dealer (we removed the clips from these tow hooks on the ships we sold).

Steve Fried


Steve,

You must be setting some sort of record for long sentences. One of them broke the meter at 293 words. Consider shortening them and your posts will be MUCH more readable.

Tom


All you English scholars out there while I applaud the level of literacy in this group, Mr. Fried was writing from a place of emotion while disseminating good information, his thoughts and perhaps we all use this site somedays as a catharsis. I respectfully think grading someone's composition in the wake of a tragedy is a tab bit insensitive and perhaps even mean spirited.. C@ny0urea%ly notun$erst#ndwhatthism*ans.
  #23  
Old September 3rd 18, 02:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
joesimmers[_2_]
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Posts: 114
Default Vermont Fatalities Today

Steve,

You must be setting some sort of record for long sentences.


I agree, makes it nearly impossible to read! So I passed it by like
I am sure many others did.
  #24  
Old September 4th 18, 04:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default Vermont Fatalities Today

Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 9/2/2018 7:30 PM:
On Sunday, September 2, 2018 at 2:31:28 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:40:09 AM UTC-7, wrote:

What I don't have the time to bring up were the other issues introduced by FAA
Belgium during the certification process that included leaving on a bungy tow hook
that had no release and looked more like a Schweitzer tow hook than the actual tow
hook, this problem only causing one ship to get totaled that was sold by another
dealer (we removed the clips from these tow hooks on the ships we sold).

.....
Steve Fried


Steve,

You must be setting some sort of record for long sentences. One of them broke the meter at 293 words. Consider shortening them and your posts will be MUCH more readable.

Tom


All you English scholars out there while I applaud the level of literacy in this group, Mr. Fried was writing from a place of emotion while disseminating good information, his thoughts and perhaps we all use this site somedays as a catharsis. I respectfully think grading someone's composition in the wake of a tragedy is a tab bit insensitive and perhaps even mean spirited.. C@ny0urea%ly notun$erst#ndwhatthism*ans.


I like Mr. Fried, and I've exchanged emails with him for over 20 years, generally
about the ASH 26 E; however, his content is buried by his writing style. All we
want is normal sentences and paragraphs, so we can understand what he wants to
tell us. As written, it is a waste of his time, as most of us will not be able to
(or will not want to) slog through it, or will misunderstand what he is saying.
I'm one of those people that bailed out a quarter of the way through, as I had
lost track of what he was trying to convey. Keeping sentences short and using
paragraphs is about clarity, and remarking on it constructively is a asset to the
author who, after all, wants to be read and understood.

I suggest he have a friend edit the content when it's more than 200 words in
total. Even famous authors have editors! Also, for lengthy remarks - just one
subject per email.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf
  #25  
Old September 4th 18, 05:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 478
Default Vermont Fatalities Today

Delicate people. I didn't have a problem reading it.
  #26  
Old September 4th 18, 06:15 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Richard McLean[_2_]
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Posts: 22
Default Vermont Fatalities Today

On Tuesday, 4 September 2018 12:55:53 UTC+8, wrote:
Delicate people. I didn't have a problem reading it.


Also no problem reading the content .. we must have superhuman powers to understand such things. Or this is the nitpickers anonymous forum ...
  #27  
Old September 4th 18, 06:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 580
Default Vermont Fatalities Today

I read Mr. Fried's posts. Yes, they could benefit from editing. Most posts I read here could (including mine; if only I hadn't divorced my copy editor wife! Hahaha).

Gently encouraging him to improve his style because his message is valued is not out of line, although I would do it offline myself (which may have occurred). As Eric observed, even (especially) famous authors have editors, badly needed in many cases.

Chip Bearden
  #28  
Old September 5th 18, 06:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Vermont Fatalities Today

On Monday, September 3, 2018 at 10:33:49 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I read Mr. Fried's posts. Yes, they could benefit from editing. Most posts I read here could (including mine; if only I hadn't divorced my copy editor wife! Hahaha).

Gently encouraging him to improve his style because his message is valued is not out of line, although I would do it offline myself (which may have occurred). As Eric observed, even (especially) famous authors have editors, badly needed in many cases.

Chip Bearden


Hey, I got this same advice in the 7th grade - if I can fix it, so can Fried.

Tom
  #29  
Old September 13th 18, 06:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie Quebec
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Posts: 253
Default Vermont Fatalities Today

TLR
  #30  
Old September 13th 18, 06:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Posts: 668
Default Vermont Fatalities Today

On Thursday, 13 September 2018 08:25:31 UTC+3, wrote:

Sorry guys, I was in the process of cleaning this up and deleting the stuff about how we got into the x87 business, when I appeared to hit the wrong key combination, around 1:24 AM.

Steve


It's unreadable anyway, no harm done.
 




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