Two die in Glider mid-air

Originally Posted by John Smith

Walt Connelly wrote:
Hard to think of anything other than pilot error for a mid air.

Yes an no. Fact is, it's impossible for a human to see every threat in
time. Yes, we have to try, but at the same time we must admit that no
matter how hard we work at it, we will never be able to reach that goal.
That's the reason why FLARM has been developed.

I agree but at the same time I would ask if they were doing what I have been told is important when thermaling with another airplane. If they were 180 degrees apart in the turn and turning in the same direction it would seem almost impossible to do a mid air.

I feel it is important to identify the real causes of these accidents and learn from them. The loss of a life is terrible, failure to learn from such a loss is inexcusable.

JMHO

Walt

There appears to be some disagreement with the comments that this collision occurred in a thermal. Found the following comments online regarding this accident.

From Fun Junkie:

This was a tragic ACCIDENT, nothing more. Having reviewed the gps logs of each gliders flight path and the video of the collision, there are two things that need to be cleared up.

First, neither glider was in a thermal so the discussions about that are pointless.

Second, neither glider was "show boating" or doing anything unsafe at the time of the collision, or prior to it.

They were simply flying in an area they knew very well and have flown hundreds of times before. On this particular flight they happened to be flying in the same geographical area but approaching from opposite directions. Both gliders were in essentially level flight and at the same altitude. For whatever reason... they simply did not see each other in sufficient time to avoid a collision. Gliders approaching each other at the same altitude are very difficult to see and close on each other very quickly. As a friend and fellow pilot of both Keith and Ray, I will miss them dearly and offer my sincerest condolences to their families and friends. This was simply a very tragic accident between two pilots who took flying safety very seriously.

End of comments

Amazing how often the facts of the case take a long time to become clear. The idea that they were not in a thermal makes more sense to me.

Walt

On Sep 6, 3:47*pm, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
There appears to be some disagreement with the comments that this
collision occurred in a thermal. *Found the following comments online
regarding this accident.

From Fun Junkie:

This was a tragic ACCIDENT, nothing more. Having reviewed the gps logs
of each gliders flight path and the video of the collision, there are
two things that need to be cleared up.

First, neither glider was in a thermal so the discussions about that are
pointless.

Second, neither glider was "show boating" or doing anything unsafe at
the time of the collision, or prior to it.

They were simply flying in an area they knew very well and have flown
hundreds of times before. On this particular flight they happened to be
flying in the same geographical area but approaching from opposite
directions. Both gliders were in essentially level flight and at the
same altitude. For whatever reason... they simply did not see each other
in sufficient time to avoid a collision. Gliders approaching each other
at the same altitude are very difficult to see and close on each other
very quickly. As a friend and fellow pilot of both Keith and Ray, I will
miss them dearly and offer my sincerest condolences to their families
and friends. This was simply a very tragic accident between two pilots
who took flying safety very seriously.

End of comments

Amazing how often the facts of the case take a long time to become
clear. *The idea that they were not in a thermal makes more sense to
me.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

quite frankly this is what really scares the **** out of me, and
pardon my french...................but I can't tell you how many times
I've lost track of my flying buddies only to have them appear where I
did not expect them. and this is with constant radio contact and
position reports.

anyone that tells you a proper scan will always save the day is
dreaming.................it will work until the day it doesn't and
then dog help us.

Brad

A PowerFlarm might have prevented this accident. I am getting one.

Mike Green

On 9/6/2011 7:40 PM, Brad wrote:
On Sep 6, 3:47 pm, Walt ConnellyWalt.Connelly.
wrote:
There appears to be some disagreement with the comments that this
collision occurred in a thermal. Found the following comments online
regarding this accident.

From Fun Junkie:

This was a tragic ACCIDENT, nothing more. Having reviewed the gps logs
of each gliders flight path and the video of the collision, there are
two things that need to be cleared up.

First, neither glider was in a thermal so the discussions about that are
pointless.

Second, neither glider was "show boating" or doing anything unsafe at
the time of the collision, or prior to it.

They were simply flying in an area they knew very well and have flown
hundreds of times before. On this particular flight they happened to be
flying in the same geographical area but approaching from opposite
directions. Both gliders were in essentially level flight and at the
same altitude. For whatever reason... they simply did not see each other
in sufficient time to avoid a collision. Gliders approaching each other
at the same altitude are very difficult to see and close on each other
very quickly. As a friend and fellow pilot of both Keith and Ray, I will
miss them dearly and offer my sincerest condolences to their families
and friends. This was simply a very tragic accident between two pilots
who took flying safety very seriously.

End of comments

Amazing how often the facts of the case take a long time to become
clear. The idea that they were not in a thermal makes more sense to
me.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

quite frankly this is what really scares the **** out of me, and
pardon my french...................but I can't tell you how many times
I've lost track of my flying buddies only to have them appear where I
did not expect them. and this is with constant radio contact and
position reports.

anyone that tells you a proper scan will always save the day is
dreaming.................it will work until the day it doesn't and
then dog help us.

Brad

On Sep 6, 8:10*pm, Mike I Green wrote:
A PowerFlarm might have prevented this accident. *I am getting one.

Mike Green

On 9/6/2011 7:40 PM, Brad wrote:







On Sep 6, 3:47 pm, Walt ConnellyWalt.Connelly.
*wrote:
There appears to be some disagreement with the comments that this
collision occurred in a thermal. *Found the following comments online
regarding this accident.

*From Fun Junkie:

This was a tragic ACCIDENT, nothing more. Having reviewed the gps logs
of each gliders flight path and the video of the collision, there are
two things that need to be cleared up.

First, neither glider was in a thermal so the discussions about that are
pointless.

Second, neither glider was "show boating" or doing anything unsafe at
the time of the collision, or prior to it.

They were simply flying in an area they knew very well and have flown
hundreds of times before. On this particular flight they happened to be
flying in the same geographical area but approaching from opposite
directions. Both gliders were in essentially level flight and at the
same altitude. For whatever reason... they simply did not see each other
in sufficient time to avoid a collision. Gliders approaching each other
at the same altitude are very difficult to see and close on each other
very quickly. As a friend and fellow pilot of both Keith and Ray, I will
miss them dearly and offer my sincerest condolences to their families
and friends. This was simply a very tragic accident between two pilots
who took flying safety very seriously.

End of comments

Amazing how often the facts of the case take a long time to become
clear. *The idea that they were not in a thermal makes more sense to
me.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

quite frankly this is what really scares the **** out of me, and
pardon my french...................but I can't tell you how many times
I've lost track of my flying buddies only to have them appear where I
did not expect them. and this is with constant radio contact and
position reports.

anyone that tells you a proper scan will always save the day is
dreaming.................it will work until the day it doesn't and
then dog help us.

Brad

As I have reported here before, I had a close head-on with a fellow
club member a couple of years ago. We were flying in opposite
directions along a cloudstreet and were in radio contact. I suddenly
saw a flash of orange ahead and slightly to my right, so I
instinctively climbed and banked left. My colleague passed not fifty
feet under my right wing and he never even saw me. One of the few
times that anti-collision markings helped (my glider has none). A
review of our GPS traces showed us closing at a speed of over 200 mph
(300 feet per second) and the time between seeing a head-on glider and
impact was barely sufficient to react.

Electronic countermeasures are the only solution.

Mike

Originally Posted by Mike the Strike

On Sep 6, 8:10*pm, Mike I Green wrote:[color=blue][i]
A PowerFlarm might have prevented this accident. *I am getting one.

Mike Green

As I have reported here before, I had a close head-on with a fellow
club member a couple of years ago. We were flying in opposite
directions along a cloudstreet and were in radio contact. I suddenly
saw a flash of orange ahead and slightly to my right, so I
instinctively climbed and banked left. My colleague passed not fifty
feet under my right wing and he never even saw me. One of the few
times that anti-collision markings helped (my glider has none). A
review of our GPS traces showed us closing at a speed of over 200 mph
(300 feet per second) and the time between seeing a head-on glider and
impact was barely sufficient to react.

Electronic countermeasures are the only solution.

Mike

Report on CBC radio this morning indicated that the Canadian Rockies Soaring Club had just ordered FLARM for all their gliders prior to the accident.... Unforunatley not installed in time. Not sure if the gliders involved were club ships. I met Keith Watson a few weeks ago when he dropped by the club I fly with and we talked for quite some time while I was working on my LS-3. Nice guy and I was sadened to hear about the accident.

Mid airs have always been my biggest source of fear in soaring. I get upset with myself everytime I notice a Cessna after it has already passed me! I watched a Challenger pass by once at the same altitude and thought to myself that I would have 0 chance avoiding a head on with a jet. I`m borderline obsessive with keeping track of every other glider in the air and I`m still surprised how many times I loose people and find them again much closer than expected.

Matt

I have a transponder, PCAS and FLARM on order. Last spring I added a
BRS, its amazing how much the BRS makes me feel secure. They have been
successfully deployed as low as 260 feet.
Cheers,
JJ
Oh, yeah, I also have a radio............and I use it when running
under a cloud street as in "JJ just turned Hayfork and is southbound
at16".

And, speaking of jets...

Years ago, while climbing above the Black Forest Glider Port at about 11,000
MSL (4,000 AGL), I noticed a tiny spot on the horizon to the south. On the
next turn, I saw the B-757 maneuvering to avoid a collision with me! I was
thankful that those guys had their heads outside the cockpit and saw me
because I had no chance to avoid a collision.

I always wondered why the FAA routed airliners traveling between Colorado
Springs (COS) and Denver (DEN) directly over our small airpark at 11,000'
MSL.

And to bore everyone further - back in the late 70s, and before knowing
anything about gliders, I was flight engineer on a B-727 on a leg between
DEN (the old Stapleton airport) and COS. Our clearance took us directly
down the ramparts of the Front Range and the captain said, "Let's see how
fast this baby will go!". We were cruising at 350 KIAS at 11,000 MSL right
over prime glider territory! I don't recall the season and I've always
wondered if there were any gliders there at the time...


"Matt RX" wrote in message
...[color=blue][i]

Mike the Strike;782551 Wrote:
On Sep 6, 8:10*pm, Mike I Green
wrote:
A PowerFlarm might have prevented this accident. *I am getting one.

Mike Green

As I have reported here before, I had a close head-on with a fellow
club member a couple of years ago. We were flying in opposite
directions along a cloudstreet and were in radio contact. I suddenly
saw a flash of orange ahead and slightly to my right, so I
instinctively climbed and banked left. My colleague passed not fifty
feet under my right wing and he never even saw me. One of the few
times that anti-collision markings helped (my glider has none). A
review of our GPS traces showed us closing at a speed of over 200 mph
(300 feet per second) and the time between seeing a head-on glider and
impact was barely sufficient to react.

Electronic countermeasures are the only solution.

Mike

Report on CBC radio this morning indicated that the Canadian Rockies
Soaring Club had just ordered FLARM for all their gliders prior to the
accident.... Unforunatley not installed in time. Not sure if the gliders
involved were club ships. I met Keith Watson a few weeks ago when he
dropped by the club I fly with and we talked for quite some time while I
was working on my LS-3. Nice guy and I was sadened to hear about the
accident.

Mid airs have always been my biggest source of fear in soaring. I get
upset with myself everytime I notice a Cessna after it has already
passed me! I watched a Challenger pass by once at the same altitude and
thought to myself that I would have 0 chance avoiding a head on with a
jet. I`m borderline obsessive with keeping track of every other glider
in the air and I`m still surprised how many times I loose people and
find them again much closer than expected.

Matt




--
Matt RX

Flarm helps a great deal preventing this! I have flown it in Europe
and it is even working well with several gliders in one thermal. I
hope the US-version of Power-Flarm will start to ship soon here. It's
so sad not just for the families but for our sport in general..

Marko

On Sep 8, 8:01*am, "Dan Marotta" wrote:[color=blue][i]
And, speaking of jets...

Years ago, while climbing above the Black Forest Glider Port at about 11,000
MSL (4,000 AGL), I noticed a tiny spot on the horizon to the south. *On the
next turn, I saw the B-757 maneuvering to avoid a collision with me! *I was
thankful that those guys had their heads outside the cockpit and saw me
because I had no chance to avoid a collision.

I always wondered why the FAA routed airliners traveling between Colorado
Springs (COS) and Denver (DEN) directly over our small airpark at 11,000'
MSL.

And to bore everyone further - back in the late 70s, and before knowing
anything about gliders, I was flight engineer on a B-727 on a leg between
DEN (the old Stapleton airport) and COS. *Our clearance took us directly
down the ramparts of the Front Range and the captain said, "Let's see how
fast this baby will go!". *We were cruising at 350 KIAS at 11,000 MSL right
over prime glider territory! *I don't recall the season and I've always
wondered if there were any gliders there at the time...

"Matt RX" wrote in message

...





Mike the Strike;782551 Wrote:
On Sep 6, 8:10*pm, Mike I Green
wrote:
A PowerFlarm might have prevented this accident. *I am getting one.

Mike Green

As I have reported here before, I had a close head-on with a fellow
club member a couple of years ago. *We were flying in opposite
directions along a cloudstreet and were in radio contact. *I suddenly
saw a flash of orange ahead and slightly to my right, so I
instinctively climbed and banked left. *My colleague passed not fifty
feet under my right wing and he never even saw me. *One of the few
times that anti-collision markings helped (my glider has none). *A
review of our GPS traces showed us closing at a speed of over 200 mph
(300 feet per second) and the time between seeing a head-on glider and
impact was barely sufficient to react.

Electronic countermeasures are the only solution.

Mike

Report on CBC radio this morning indicated that the Canadian Rockies
Soaring Club had just ordered FLARM for all their gliders prior to the
accident.... Unforunatley not installed in time. Not sure if the gliders
involved were club ships. I met Keith Watson a few weeks ago when he
dropped by the club I fly with and we talked for quite some time while I
was working on my LS-3. Nice guy and I was sadened to hear about the
accident.

Mid airs have always been my biggest source of fear in soaring. I get
upset with myself everytime I notice a Cessna after it has already
passed me! I watched a Challenger pass by once at the same altitude and
thought to myself that I would have 0 chance avoiding a head on with a
jet. I`m borderline obsessive with keeping track of every other glider
in the air and I`m still surprised how many times I loose people and
find them again much closer than expected.

Matt

--
Matt RX- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dan, I assume you were not flying with a transponder at that time, but
flying with one now. Since I started flying with transponders I never
saw an airliner too close, and I am flying in some of the most busy
airspaces in the US (Bay Area and Reno).
But transponder wouldn't have saved those folks. Flarm could. How
tragic.

Ramy