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#31
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Can we tell who is competent with certainty?
Well, then, I agree with you Eric, and understand your position.
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message ... On 9/10/2011 1:04 PM, Dan Marotta wrote: I saw your previous statement, Eric. And maybe I misunderstood what you said. I assume you said that you've mistakenly taken off with spoilers unlocked. That's an oversight that I'm not railing about. Answer me this: Assuming the spoilers sucked open sometime after liftoff, did you recognize it and close them, or did you fly blissfully along wondering why it was suddenly so noisy and your climb rate had diminished, not to mention the sudden drop causing your head to bang the canopy? In one cases, I did tow along blissfully for a while, but it wasn't noisy, my climb rate did not diminish, and there wasn't any sudden drop. It would be great if those things happened, but they don't happen on an ASW 20 B when the spoilers slowly extend under tow. At some point, I realized I was flying at a higher than usual AOA for the speed I was being towed at. That perception was delayed because I was at a contest, flying with water, behind a fast, powerful towplane (twice the climb rate of the one in our club), and so was not familiar with the correct attitude. In the other case, they opened about 10' off the ground, a few seconds after liftoff. There was no extra noise, there was no reduction in climb rate, but I did notice a drop (but not sudden) that I first attributed to a sinking air or wind shear, but after "a few seconds" (5? 10?) I realized something was wrong, checked the spoilers - oops - and closed them. Again, being towed by a powerful tow plane. At high speeds, spoilers will act like you wrote (sudden opening, noisy, big drop), but at tow speeds, they can open so gently it's not immediately evident. My guess: this is probably what happens a lot of times when the spoiler suck open during the tow, and why the pilot doesn't recognize it immediately, and sometimes not at all. "Eric Greenwell" wrote in message ... On 9/10/2011 12:19 PM, Dan Marotta wrote: Why must we continue to try to make everything safe for everyone? Some people should just NOT be flying aircraft. Or riding motorcycles, or driving cars. I think we'd all be better served if these folks were told to stop flying. But then we'd have to ask: "Who certified them as safe and competent in the first place?" Sorry if I sound harsh, but there are too many incompetent people in the world, the result of putting their self esteem above their safety. If they can't do it, why not just tell them so? Sometimes we do, but it's not an easy task determining who is incompetent, or if currently incompetent, will become competent. In a recent post, you wrote: If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't be flying. Perhaps you missed my earlier response to that statement, but the basic idea was: I know many competent pilots, including myself, that have had this happen to them. As many have pointed out, accidents are happening to pilots that appear competent and are certainly experienced. It's not just the obvious bozo that's having accidents. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl |
#32
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Can we tell who is competent with certainty?
And yet another good example! You guys have opened my eyes some on
not-so-obvious malfunctions. My harsh comments were for those who don't pay attention. I can think of two glaring examples: One in which an open canopy resulted in a low release, failed turn back, broken glider, and two injured people, one of whom was a paying passenger. The pilot was a CFIG! The other, also an open canopy, resulted in the pilot towing to a safe release altitude while holding the canopy down, then unable to deploy the spoilers (didn't have 3 hands), and being unable figure out how to slip or extend the pattern, flew the length of the 8,000+ foot runway and crashed beyond the end. The pilot survived with, IIRC, minor injuries, but the glider was damaged. Since the second mentioned accident, the club has emphasized training on slips to landing. Frankly, I would have slipped in the direction of the canopy hinge (I think it was side-opening), momentarily released my hold on the stick, locked the canopy, and continued the flight. "BruceGreeff" wrote in message ... Things go wrong - sometimes in ways that look like you are incompetent. I had my airbrake over centre adjusted wrong at an annual inspection. First tow there was much excitement and rudder waggling. Every time I locked the lever back, every time they popped open 20 seconds later. Eventually just wedged them and flew, the aerotow was slower to climb because I could not hold the brakes entire ly closed with my thigh - but at least I was not having 20foot excursions the whole time. Lots of comments when I landed. Geometry checked and overcentre load adjusted correctly. Suddenly pilot competence increased substantially... So - yes we try to make things safe because things can go wrong. There is a fine line before sanitising to the point of pilots becoming dangerous. Unfortunately some folk just can't ever get safe. In our club operation they then have the choice of continuing with a safety pilot, or going back to being a spectator. Fortunately there are very few who fail to recognise their own limitations. It is one of the reasons folk drift away. Hard call to make, but it is better to have someone alive and resentful of your decision than dead. On 2011/09/10 9:47 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote: On 9/10/2011 12:19 PM, Dan Marotta wrote: Why must we continue to try to make everything safe for everyone? Some people should just NOT be flying aircraft. Or riding motorcycles, or driving cars. I think we'd all be better served if these folks were told to stop flying. But then we'd have to ask: "Who certified them as safe and competent in the first place?" Sorry if I sound harsh, but there are too many incompetent people in the world, the result of putting their self esteem above their safety. If they can't do it, why not just tell them so? Sometimes we do, but it's not an easy task determining who is incompetent, or if currently incompetent, will become competent. In a recent post, you wrote: If your spoilers "suck open" and you don't recognize it, you shouldn't be flying. Perhaps you missed my earlier response to that statement, but the basic idea was: I know many competent pilots, including myself, that have had this happen to them. As many have pointed out, accidents are happening to pilots that appear competent and are certainly experienced. It's not just the obvious bozo that's having accidents. -- Bruce Greeff T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57 |
#33
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Cambridge 302 Gear/Airbrake Warning - How to Test?
On 9/10/2011 3:45 PM, ContestID67 wrote:
Westbender - Thanks for the comments. Power testing - You don't have to power up/down to test? Hmmm, that was not my experience - just deploying the airbrakes with gear up didn't do it, I had to power cycle. Different vintages of 302s? John, Something is amiss. If you were entering the landing pattern with your gear up and you open your spoilers, you definitely should not have to power cycle the 302 to get the alarm. That would kind of defeat the purpose. My 302 is 6 years old, however it had the latest firmware installed this last winter. |
#34
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Cambridge 302 Gear/Airbrake Warning - How to Test?
On Sep 10, 7:18*pm, Dave Hoppe wrote:
On 9/10/2011 3:45 PM, ContestID67 wrote: Westbender - Thanks for the comments. Power testing - You don't have to power up/down to test? *Hmmm, that was not my experience - just deploying the airbrakes with gear up didn't do it, I had to power cycle. *Different vintages of 302s? John, Something is amiss. If you were entering the landing pattern with your gear up and you open your spoilers, you definitely should not have to power cycle the 302 to get the alarm. That would kind of defeat the purpose. My 302 is 6 years old, however it had the latest firmware installed this last winter. I should mention that the update did not change the alarm behavior. |
#35
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Cambridge 302 Gear/Airbrake Warning - How to Test?
On Sep 9, 5:23*pm, ContestID67 wrote:
I was informed (and verified) that there is a way to easily test the 302 warning system while on the ground. - Power down the 302 - Unlock the airbrakes with the gear unlocked/up - Power up the 302 The alarm will then sound (euro siren) after the self test is complete. *A large upwards pointing arrow will appear in the display, different than the small speed up/down arrows, meaning I suppose that your gear is up. *You can silence the alarm by pushing the button. Yet another undocumented feature/sound from the Cambridge 302! - John The power up alarm sounds with brakes unlocked with the gear DOWN and locked. After power up test execution the gear warning is as expected - the gear alarm only sounds if the brakes are unlocked and the gear is not down locked. The alarm may also sound on power up with the brakes unlocked and the gear not down and locked but I can't be sure of that as my assembly routine has gear down and glider pushed back from trailer before the batteries are fitted. Andy |
#36
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Cambridge 302 Gear/Airbrake Warning - How to Test?
On 9/9/11 3:56 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
the cable is NOT put on unless the pilot announces "Brakes locked" before asking for 'cable on'. And if the pilot uses spoilers to get better aileron control at the start of the takeoff? Or the wheel brake is on the spoilers and the pilot wants to prevent a rope overrun? -Tom |
#37
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Cambridge 302 Gear/Airbrake Warning - How to Test?
On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 19:39:46 -0700, Tom Serkowski wrote:
On 9/9/11 3:56 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote: the cable is NOT put on unless the pilot announces "Brakes locked" before asking for 'cable on'. And if the pilot uses spoilers to get better aileron control at the start of the takeoff? Doing standard UK CBSIFTCBE preflight checks, accepting the cable before opening the brakes and keeping a hand on the brake lever allows the pilot to accept the cable with brakes locked, so the confirmation can be made correctly. Of course, if you are flying somewhere that doesn't teach a preflight check which includes opening, visually checking, and then locking the brakes, doesn't include the checks in every flight under instruction and which tolerates launches for pilots who skip the preflight check then you should expect launches with unlocked brakes as well as any consequent crashes. Or the wheel brake is on the spoilers and the pilot wants to prevent a rope overrun? Totally unlikely on our field, which is, if anything, always slightly uphill since it has a small hump (on a winch launch the wing runner can see the winch flashing but the pilot usually can't). I've only flown on one field where that was necessary, the Wasserkuppe, and again that's a bit special since you take off downwind and downhill on a hard runway which is steep enough to require a small wooden wedge in front of the main wheel to stop the glider running forward while the pilot (s) get in. In any case in the UK and other places where the CBSIFTCBE preflight check is taught the pilot will have cycled the brakes AND DONE A VISUAL CHECK before unlocking and opening them if the glider needs that for a successful launch, so the announcement "Brakes locked: cable on, please" should be redundant. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#38
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Cambridge 302 Gear/Airbrake Warning - How to Test?
On Sep 10, 7:18*pm, Dave Hoppe wrote:
Something is amiss. If you were entering the landing pattern with your gear up and you open your spoilers, you definitely should not have to power cycle the 302 to get the alarm. That would kind of defeat the purpose. My 302 is 6 years old, however it had the latest firmware installed this last winter. Dave - The power cycle testing I refer to is perform on the ground during/after assembly...not in the air during the landing cycle. Thanks. |
#39
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Cambridge 302 Gear/Airbrake Warning - How to Test?
On Sep 11, 8:25*am, ContestID67 wrote:
On Sep 10, 7:18*pm, Dave Hoppe wrote: Something is amiss. If you were entering the landing pattern with your gear up and you open your spoilers, you definitely should not have to power cycle the 302 to get the alarm. That would kind of defeat the purpose. My 302 is 6 years old, however it had the latest firmware installed this last winter. Dave - The power cycle testing I refer to is perform on the ground during/after assembly...not in the air during the landing cycle. Thanks. I see, I guess I misunderstood. When you posted "just deploying the airbrakes with gear up didn't do it, I had to power cycle.", I assumed you weren't able to sound the alarm by unlocking spoilers with gear up on the ground. Glad to hear it's all working for you. |
#40
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Well,I think that one should not ride a heavy vehicle at a high speed because anytime there will be emergency brake,So,the pilot or the person can easily can slow the speed of that vehicle.
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