Notes on the Vertica 2, Gliderguider PNA

On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 3:20:56 PM UTC-4, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
I have just installed WinPilot PRO 12.02 for PNA's (yes, PNA's) on the V2.. I now have 2 soaring programs installed on the PNA (not the storage card) including extra maps and TP's. I still have ample room to even add another soaring program which I will due shortly. I can operate even more from the mini SD card.

WinPilot PRO is asking for information from my CAI 302. The serial cable is not here yet, so its just going to have to wait. Runs fine in simulator mode.



Important: If you are installing any software on the V2 which requires a password, you first need to disable "spell check" and "suggested words." Settingsinputword completionnow on this page you need to uncheck 2 boxes. Simple and now you can run the program and enter your password.



Now, on my other recent post, this was done just to help those who might like some information. It was my bad that I just posted links on my page which would lead readers to information if they so desired. I do believe that everyone is very thankful as to where we are now versus where we have been.. Many have done a lot of hard work on their programs and rightly are proud of their work. Sure, it would be nice if we all could drive a new F 12 or ZR1 to shop at Wal Mart, but its just not so for many of us. Its all about choices we have these days and I do think that's something we all should be grateful for.



Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe.



#711.

XC Soar run on a Dell Streak which is the best program and device I have used in a glider. I will never pay a dime for any software simply because it is not necessary. The last straw was messing with SEEYOU Mobile for years. My life got a whole lot less complicated when I threw that way too complicated program in the trash and switched to XC Soar. The people that put the XC Soar program together deserve a standing ovation, Great Job.
All of these other devices certain people bring up such as this V2 does not seem to offer anything that is worth the time or money unless a lot a people begin to vouch for its capability. It would certainly take a lot people besides Tom Kelly because he seems to always be on the leading edge of technology and relish that role.

Bob Fidler
F1

On Saturday, October 27, 2012 3:57:59 AM UTC-7, Robert Fidler wrote:
On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 3:20:56 PM UTC-4, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:

I have just installed WinPilot PRO 12.02 for PNA's (yes, PNA's) on the V2. I now have 2 soaring programs installed on the PNA (not the storage card) including extra maps and TP's. I still have ample room to even add another soaring program which I will due shortly. I can operate even more from the mini SD card.



WinPilot PRO is asking for information from my CAI 302. The serial cable is not here yet, so its just going to have to wait. Runs fine in simulator mode.







Important: If you are installing any software on the V2 which requires a password, you first need to disable "spell check" and "suggested words." Settingsinputword completionnow on this page you need to uncheck 2 boxes. Simple and now you can run the program and enter your password.







Now, on my other recent post, this was done just to help those who might like some information. It was my bad that I just posted links on my page which would lead readers to information if they so desired. I do believe that everyone is very thankful as to where we are now versus where we have been. Many have done a lot of hard work on their programs and rightly are proud of their work. Sure, it would be nice if we all could drive a new F 12 or ZR1 to shop at Wal Mart, but its just not so for many of us. Its all about choices we have these days and I do think that's something we all should be grateful for.







Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe.







#711.



XC Soar run on a Dell Streak which is the best program and device I have used in a glider. I will never pay a dime for any software simply because it is not necessary. The last straw was messing with SEEYOU Mobile for years.. My life got a whole lot less complicated when I threw that way too complicated program in the trash and switched to XC Soar. The people that put the XC Soar program together deserve a standing ovation, Great Job.

All of these other devices certain people bring up such as this V2 does not seem to offer anything that is worth the time or money unless a lot a people begin to vouch for its capability. It would certainly take a lot people besides Tom Kelly because he seems to always be on the leading edge of technology and relish that role.



Bob Fidler

F1

What you use will always be colored by personal preference. I find the XCSoar user interface to be verbose and a bit clunky, though it is more consistent than SYM. By far the best is iGlide, followed by WP, with the others trailing behind. For example in XCSoar to add a turnpoint to a task takes a minimum of 10 screen taps, often many more. On WP about 5. On iGlide just one. Unfortunately iGlide is not yet feature complete, lacking baro and vario functions (I understand these are promised for the future). That leaves WPPro, which also has the best thermal assistant by a considerable margin.

jfitch wrote:
For example in XCSoar to add a turnpoint to a task takes a minimum
of 10 screen taps, often many more.

Not true.

1. tap on waypoint
2. tap on next page
3. tap on "insert in task" or "append to task"

Can it possibly be any quicker?

On Saturday, October 27, 2012 2:33:29 PM UTC-7, Max Kellermann wrote:


For example in XCSoar to add a turnpoint to a task takes a minimum

of 10 screen taps, often many more.



Not true.



1. tap on waypoint

2. tap on next page

3. tap on "insert in task" or "append to task"



Can it possibly be any quicker?

Well, let me count. If it happens that I want to insert a turnpoint on the current leg, the sequence seems to be Click on TPSelect TP from listDetailsRight ArrowInsert in task. That is 5 clicks. If I want it to be inserted in the next leg, then in addition MenuTaskTurnpointsSelect TP from listUp/Down arrowCloseFly, for a total of at least 12. But perhaps there is an easier way?

Yes it can be quicker as is done in iGlide. A single tap and drag to insert, move, or remove a TP anywhere in the task. In boat navigation systems it has been done this way for many years, surprising that it has taken this long to make it into gliders.

Folks, putting the benefits of one software or the other aside, the V2 or Gliderguider are just great PNA's. I have flown with a V2 for the last two months and the visibility is excellent, under all lighting conditions. I used to fly with a MIO400 with a sunshade and the V2 brightness is night and day. I understand that the V2 can run several type of softwares (XC Soar, LK8000, SeeYou mobile, etc).

The 5" screen is large enough, but not too large to fit on the side of the cockpit. These PNA can also connect to other instruments (e.g. LxNav V7) via bluetooth.

The price seems about right for the visibility. Other soaring dedicated PNA run over $1000 (LX Minimap). The Oudie 2 seems to be a similar hardware running SeeYou Mobile. So, for the purpose of comparing the V2 and Oudie, I would argue that these are essentially the same (except for the preconfiguration that Oudie offers). There might be Android hardware solutions out there but the only software option at this point is XCSoar.

My 2 cents.

B

The underlying issue with appending a turnpoint to a task during flight is a US problem. This is because Americans are about the only folks who fly MATs.

The problem is not just the 5 or whatever clicks required to add a TP to a MAT. To help a pilot fly a MAT, the ideal glide computer should do mo
1) draw 1 mile circles around all Control points in the Turpoint file and display their names and numbers, making TPs highly distinguishable from non-TPs and clearly visible on the map
2) when the pilot clicks one of those TPs, a "what if" screen shows the pilot information about "what if he adds the TP to the task" (estimated finish time, speed, distance.) (The SN 10 reportedly shows this)
3) Then the pilot can choose to either (A) add the TP, (B) cancel and resume flying, or (C) explore other local items on the map.
The point is that the pilot's needs from the glide computer while flying a MAT are very different from his needs while flying normal XC or non-MAT tasks.

Rob Dunning

On Saturday, October 27, 2012 7:47:44 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:



Well, let me count. If it happens that I want to insert a turnpoint on the current leg, the sequence seems to be Click on TPSelect TP from listDetailsRight ArrowInsert in task. That is 5 clicks. If I want it to be inserted in the next leg, then in addition MenuTaskTurnpointsSelect TP from listUp/Down arrowCloseFly, for a total of at least 12. But perhaps there is an easier way?

At 12:41 28 October 2012, Bastoune wrote:

So, for the purpose of comparing the V2 and Oudie, I
w=
ould argue that these are essentially the same (except
for the
preconfigura=
tion that Oudie offers). There might be Android
hardware solutions out
ther=
e but the only software option at this point is XCSoar.

My 2 cents.

B
Except the V2 has an internal GPS without traffic
smoothing, so will be more accurate where precise
positioning is required, eg: for wind calculation for
thermal drift. And although there's nothing to stop you
running other Windows CE software on the Oudie, you're
still effectively paying for SeeYou Mobile.

Of course if you use an external GPS source and like
SYM anyway, there's no practical difference.

On Sunday, October 28, 2012 5:57:12 AM UTC-7, Robert Dunning wrote:
The underlying issue with appending a turnpoint to a task during flight is a US problem. This is because Americans are about the only folks who fly MATs.



The problem is not just the 5 or whatever clicks required to add a TP to a MAT. To help a pilot fly a MAT, the ideal glide computer should do mo

1) draw 1 mile circles around all Control points in the Turpoint file and display their names and numbers, making TPs highly distinguishable from non-TPs and clearly visible on the map

2) when the pilot clicks one of those TPs, a "what if" screen shows the pilot information about "what if he adds the TP to the task" (estimated finish time, speed, distance.) (The SN 10 reportedly shows this)

3) Then the pilot can choose to either (A) add the TP, (B) cancel and resume flying, or (C) explore other local items on the map.

The point is that the pilot's needs from the glide computer while flying a MAT are very different from his needs while flying normal XC or non-MAT tasks.



Rob Dunning



On Saturday, October 27, 2012 7:47:44 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:







Well, let me count. If it happens that I want to insert a turnpoint on the current leg, the sequence seems to be Click on TPSelect TP from listDetailsRight ArrowInsert in task. That is 5 clicks. If I want it to be inserted in the next leg, then in addition MenuTaskTurnpointsSelect TP from listUp/Down arrowCloseFly, for a total of at least 12. But perhaps there is an easier way?



If the turn points are very easily modified (as they are in some programs) then you can go through the "what if" scenarios very quickly by simply modifying the task.

However, I do not fly contests *at all*. Not real, not virtual, not online. But I still use glider software on a PDA. I would like to see a poll of how many people who use a PDA based glide computer are actually flying contests. At my normal flying site, there are probably 30 active cross country pilots, nearly all have some sort of PDA with somebody's software installed. I think about 5 fly contests.

So my situation and my experience, glide computer â‰* contest flying.

But I still fly every day like it was a POST task. I may start on the ground with a vague idea that, say, going south looks good and put in a turn point to the south. Then as I start out, I decide to go more to the east, so insert a turnpoint that direction. Then a friend calls on the radio and says let's go further southeast, so I add that one - etc. The task is almost always built in the air.

Regardless of how you fly though, the ease of use of software is a figure of absolute merit. I don't want to have to do 10 keystrokes to add a turnpoint sitting here in my living room if I don't have to, and there programs that do it with as little as one.

In addition, the number of taps to add a turnpoint is only a sample test or surrogate for how verbose the user interface is in general. I applaud the efforts of those writing these programs, for which there is little or no financial reward. Unfortunately however most are not models of man-machine interface design, and yet are intended to be used in an environment where quick and unambiguous interaction is at a premium. I own about 6 GPS navigation programs for my sailboat, 3 are PDA based. Sadly, all of them have a much better user interface than most of the glider programs. Quicker, cleaner, less verbose, more consistent. And this for use on a sailboat with an average speed of around 6 knots, most of the time you can go take a nap for an hour and not worry about hitting anything.

Hopefully this situation will improve as software migrates to Android and iOS. These operating systems make it easier for the programmer to implement a more advanced UI compared to the rather antiquated MS mobile products.

At 12:57 28 October 2012, Robert Dunning wrote:
The underlying issue with appending a turnpoint to a task during flight
is
=
a US problem. This is because Americans are about the only folks who fly
M=
ATs.


Lol,

My point exactly, GN2 can't beat its simplicity...


The problem is not just the 5 or whatever clicks required to add a TP to
a
=
MAT. To help a pilot fly a MAT, the ideal glide computer should do mo
1) draw 1 mile circles around all Control points in the Turpoint file and
d=
isplay their names and numbers, making TPs highly distinguishable from
non-=
TPs and clearly visible on the map
2) when the pilot clicks one of those TPs, a "what if" screen shows the
pil=
ot information about "what if he adds the TP to the task" (estimated
finish=
time, speed, distance.) (The SN 10 reportedly shows this)
3) Then the pilot can choose to either (A) add the TP, (B) cancel and
resum=
e flying, or (C) explore other local items on the map.
The point is that the pilot's needs from the glide computer while flying
a
=
MAT are very different from his needs while flying normal XC or non-MAT
tas=
ks.

Rob Dunning

On Saturday, October 27, 2012 7:47:44 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

=20
=20
Well, let me count. If it happens that I want to insert a turnpoint on
th=
e current leg, the sequence seems to be Click on TPSelect TP from
listDet=
ailsRight ArrowInsert in task. That is 5 clicks. If I want it to be
inser=
ted in the next leg, then in addition MenuTaskTurnpointsSelect TP from
l=
istUp/Down arrowCloseFly, for a total of at least 12. But perhaps
there
=
is an easier way?
=20

"Regardless of how you fly though, the ease of use of software is a figure of absolute merit. I don't want to have to do 10 keystrokes to add a turnpoint sitting here in my living room if I don't have to, and there programs that do it with as little as one."

You cannot get away from the fact that different ways of flying tasks lead to different software designs. Where I fly, we always set up pre-determined tasks before going near the glide computer. On the glide computer, we never enter them via the map but always via a text based task entry routine. Both SeeYou Mobile and Winpilot are very good for this. If we change our task we have effectively abandoned the task, in which case most would use a simple Goto feature - which again both SYM and WP handle well.

I am running SYM on a GliderGuider, which I rate highly for the bright screen and the internal GPS which does not have the track smoothing issue. I changed to SYM from WP mainly because of the vastly better support. Folks complain about an inconsistent UI on SYM, but I find it pretty good, and certainly more consistent than WP. I have played with LK8000, but it seems less straightforward to me than SYM.