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#21
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However, the SEL will have a great deal of difficulty seeing the
MEL that is overtaking him. Likewise, the ultralights will have difficulty seeing any SEL or MEL that are overtaking them. Is this system really the best way to minimize the risk in the traffic pattern? I don't think I'd be so concerned with a guy behind me... unless we both have an operating radio and make proper calls, I would not even know he is behind me. If I'm in a J-3 or a Champ or a Piper 140 or 180 or a C-210, and I think that "larger SEL or MEL" aircraft is going to crawl up my butt, I think a simple radio call asking if he can see me in front of him would suffice. If I'm in my J-3, NORDO, and I know I did not cut off a 5 mile straight in aircraft, could not see him and tell he was in the pattern. Then, he needs to be looking out the window. No, I am not standing on the, "I'm in front I own the runway" mentality, I'm just stating the way it is. I have not flown many aircraft where I can crank my head around to check 6 on final approach for that big bear that's gonna roll over me. BT |
#22
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BTIZ wrote: No, I am not standing on the, "I'm in front I own the runway" mentality, I'm just stating the way it is. I have not flown many aircraft where I can crank my head around to check 6 on final approach for that big bear that's gonna roll over me. Right with you. I do a final in my Maule at or below 65 mph, touching down about 45. I don't usually have a problem with the fast traffic, 'cause they know what they're doing, but I do get the occasional solo student in a Cherokee who wants to climb right up my back on final. I haven't found the STC for a rear-view mirror yet. Of course, the fact that I have flaps gives me a bit more ability to do a faster final than a J-3 has. George Patterson Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more often to the physician than to the patient. |
#23
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#24
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"Ron Natalie" wrote in message ...
"Ace Pilot" wrote in message om... But there are airports that don't have this luxury and all aircraft have to share the same runway. Putting the ultralights on the "inside and lower" from the regular (SEL) traffic pattern, which may be "inside and lower" the MEL puts the burden for see and avoid on the faster aircraft. Back when our airport had a fairly active ultralight activity. They flew the opposite pattern, obviously lower and tighter than the regular pattern. It was quite easy as a result for them to adjust on base leg to fit into the higher performance traffic. This sounds interesting. If I understand you correctly, everyone used the same runway, but higher performance aircraft flew a left-hand pattern while ultralights flew a right-hand pattern (or vice versa). This is contrary to what AC 90-66A suggests, i.e., different size and altitude patterns on the same side of the runway. Was there something that prevented the airport from following the 90-66A recommendation, or was this procedure deemed safer than what 90-66A recommended? I can see some of the advantages. While on downwind and base, traffic with significantly different speeds is more likely forward of you, enabling everyone to better see and avoid the traffic that is of most concern. Having different sized patterns on opposite sides of the runway means that traffic that overshoots final isn't flying head on into the other pattern's base leg traffic. Were there any disadvantages with this procedure? How was knowledge of this procedure disseminated? Thanks for the input, Ron. |
#25
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Ace Pilot wrote: Were there any disadvantages with this procedure? How was knowledge of this procedure disseminated? Thanks for the input, Ron. One disadvantage is the fact that aircraft on the base leg of a reverse-direction pattern can't be seen by high-wing aircraft waiting at the runway. Couple that with a circling approach from 300' AGL, and you've got real problems. I was almost nailed on my solo flight by some A**hole doing this in a Breezy. Fortunately, a CFI flying the usual pattern with a student heard me announce departure and got on the radio. I was halfway out on the runway before I got stopped, though. His wheels were below the level of my instrument panel when he went by. George Patterson Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more often to the physician than to the patient. |
#26
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"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
... One disadvantage is the fact that aircraft on the base leg of a reverse-direction pattern can't be seen by high-wing aircraft waiting at the runway. Huh? Left or right patterns are not chosen for the convenience of those waiting at the runway. At most airports, the pattern is all left turns or all right turns, and there is only one taxiway to the runway. There is almost always the potential for a high-wing airplane to not be able to see traffic on base leg without turning the airplane prior to entering the runway. This has nothing to do with having a "reverse-direction pattern". You can NEVER count on there not being an aircraft on base leg behind you as you enter the runway. That's why I ALWAYS turn the airplane so that I can see the base leg behind me, whichever base leg that is and whether or not it's part of the usual pattern, before I enter the runway. [...] I was halfway out on the runway before I got stopped, though. His wheels were below the level of my instrument panel when he went by. Sounds to me like you both screwed up. Before wandering onto the runway, you should've positioned your airplane so you could see traffic approaching the runway, and he should have gone around when you violated his right-of-way as landing traffic. Pete |
#27
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"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ... One disadvantage is the fact that aircraft on the base leg of a reverse-direction pattern can't be seen by high-wing aircraft waiting at the runway Not at our field. The aircraft at the hold line actually has his back to his OWN base leg. He's looking at the ultralight base leg. You've got to turn towards final before you leave anyhow (or in the Navion slide the canopy back so you can see 360 degrees). |
#28
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"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ... Sounds to me like you both screwed up. Before wandering onto the runway, you should've positioned your airplane so you could see traffic approaching the runway, and he should have gone around when you violated his right-of-way as landing traffic. I'm also not sure why traffic on base is an issue. How long does it take to depart? Around here there are typically people on final when you pull out. If you don't you'll never get off the ground on a busy day. |
#29
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"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. .. I'm also not sure why traffic on base is an issue. How long does it take to depart? Around here there are typically people on final when you pull out. If you don't you'll never get off the ground on a busy day. Maybe it's those fast slow ultralights? Seriously though, I have to assume it's a combination of a significantly smaller pattern flown (where final is very short) and the base leg visibility he's complaining about. The complaint still doesn't make sense, but at least I can hypothesize a pattern flown where traffic on base is still relatively close to landing. Who knows? Bottom line though is that one should not taxi onto the runway until one has made sure one is not pulling out in front of traffic, no matter where that traffic may be. Pete |
#30
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"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ... Ace Pilot wrote: Were there any disadvantages with this procedure? How was knowledge of this procedure disseminated? Thanks for the input, Ron. One disadvantage is the fact that aircraft on the base leg of a reverse-direction pattern can't be seen by high-wing aircraft waiting at the runway. I don't understand. I fly a high wing and have never had a problem seeing base leg traffic no matter the runway/taxiway configuration or traffic direction. The old 360 before taking the runway allows one to see all traffic no matter where it is coming from. Couple that with a circling approach from 300' AGL, and you've got real problems. I was almost nailed on my solo flight by some A**hole doing this in a Breezy. Fortunately, a CFI flying the usual pattern with a student heard me announce departure and got on the radio. I was halfway out on the runway before I got stopped, though. His wheels were below the level of my instrument panel when he went by. George Patterson Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more often to the physician than to the patient. |
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