Logging Right Seat Time

"Jose" wrote in message
news
So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is not
a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully supervise
her, and you can't log the time PIC.

That's correct, at least according to the wording of the FARs (61.51e).
Whether it's what the FAA really intended is anyone's guess.

Handling the robot (turning on the autopilot) apparantly counts as
handling a control.

Yup. Whereas a passenger does not count as a control. That distinction per
se (between what is and isn't a control) is reasonable, though the
corresponding distinction between the time you can and can't log is less
reasonable, as you point out.

--Gary

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...
Jose wrote:
I'm a Captain in all the planes but move to the right seat often. When
I'm in the right seat what can I log?


IMHO, If you are the Pilot In Command, you log PIC time, no matter what
(physical) seat you sit in.

Where you sit is not important. However, the rules don't say "LOG PIC
TIME WHEN YOU ARE PIC." In order to do that there are additional
qualifications. The most commonly used one is that the regulations
(lets say Part 135) require more than one pilot.

My strict reading of 61.51(e) says that if you are not the "sole
manipulator", then even if you =are= the PIC, then so long as anybody
else is handling the controls, you can't log PIC time,Y

You better read 61.51 again. There are three more clauses than the
one you're reading.

Though it refers to currency, you might check 61.58 for some insights as
well.

Handling the robot (turning on the autopilot) apparantly counts as
handling a control.


Yup. Whereas a passenger does not count as a control. That distinction per
se (between what is and isn't a control) is reasonable

Why?

This is a serious question, especially considering the capabilities of
some robots, and the lack of capability of some organic autopilots.

Jose
--
I used to make money in the stock market, now I make money in the basement.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article ,
Jose wrote:

So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is
not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully
supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC.

That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by
letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane. (A
little discretion goes a long way in such situations.)

The next day you fly a
Cirrus by programming the CID (Cirrus Autoflight Device) and pushing the
GO button, essentially become a passenger while the glass cockpit does
the work, and all that time goes in your book as PIC.

That's right, because you're still responsible if the CID goes belly-up.
That (and FAR 91.13) is why you can't just take a nap even when the
autopilot is on.

rg

You ask, "When I'm in the right seat what can I log"

There is not enough information to answer your question. Being "in the
right seat is irrelevant. If you are still the Pilot in Command then
you log PIC by virtue of being Pilot in Command. If the person in the
left seat is Pilot in Command, and logging PIC, then the situation may
be different. Let us assume that is the case. Is he loggin PIC by
virtue of manipulating the controls or by virtue of being in charge of
the airplane? (acting as PIC). If he he is logging by virtue of
manipulating the controls, then you could log PIC by virtue of being in
charge....but.....the operation of the plane doesn't require two crew
members. So this is iffy, very iffy. You are both logging PIC, and the
plane doesn't require two pilots. HOONNKK! You can't do it.
I don't even think you can log it as Total Time.

Think of it this way, if you log it as PIC and at your airline
interview you get asked, "why did you log these flights as PIC?". What
are you going to say?

The only way I see you could log it as PIC is if you are giving him
instruction, or he is under the hood. Not sure if your company ops
would permit that.

"Jose" wrote in message
news
Handling the robot (turning on the autopilot) apparantly counts as
handling a control.


Yup. Whereas a passenger does not count as a control. That distinction
per se (between what is and isn't a control) is reasonable

Why?

This is a serious question, especially considering the capabilities of
some robots, and the lack of capability of some organic autopilots.

The distinction is reasonable because the ordinary meaning of 'control' is
that it refers to an inanimate or non-sentient device, not to a person. As
sophisticated as some autopilots are, they are not yet sentient. You're
right that *for purposes of logging PIC time*, that distinction doesn't
matter (though for many *other* purposes it certainly matters!). So the line
drawn by 61.51e doesn't make much sense, but that's different from the
distinction between control and non-control not making sense. The FAA should
just rephrase 61.51e(ii) to say "sole rated occupant" rather than "sole
occupant".

--Gary

"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jose wrote:

So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is
not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully
supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC.

That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by
letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane.

No you haven't. There is nothing inherently careless and reckless about
letting a non-pilot passenger manipulate the controls. It's a routine and
accepted practice. Have you ever read of an FAA opinion criticizing the
practice, or an enforcement action taken for that reason?

--Gary

So, you (a regular private pilot) go up in a 172 with a friend who is
not a pilot, you let him take the controls while you very carefully
supervise her, and you can't log the time PIC.


That's right. Not only that, but you've probably broken FAR 91.13 by
letting a person without a valid pilot certificate fly the plane.

You break 91.13 at the FAA's discretion. But I see nothing careless or
reckless unless I take a nap.

The next day you fly a
Cirrus by programming the CID (Cirrus Autoflight Device) and pushing the
GO button, essentially become a passenger while the glass cockpit does
the work, and all that time goes in your book as PIC.


That's right, because you're still responsible if the CID goes belly-up.

You're still responsible if the organic autopilot goes awry too.

Jose
--
I used to make money in the stock market, now I make money in the basement.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Please read this thread carefully, it answers the original question.

http://www.risingup.com/forums/archi...php/t-378.html

Jose wrote:
Handling the robot (turning on the autopilot) apparantly counts as
handling a control.



Yup. Whereas a passenger does not count as a control. That distinction
per se (between what is and isn't a control) is reasonable


Why?

This is a serious question, especially considering the capabilities of
some robots, and the lack of capability of some organic autopilots.


It's a distinction without a difference. Nobody with more than three
brain cells left who goes flying for an hour and lets their 10 year old
kid fly for 30 minutes of that hour only logs 30 minutes as PIC.