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#1
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Ice
VW-powered plane goes down in the Frozen North, which to me is
anywhere other than Southern California. Pilot walks away from it, having just bought one airplane's-worth of education. Now he wants to know why he lost power. I don't know & tell him so. (Kinda hard to do an accident investigation via email). But he keeps pinging on me as the Guru of Last Resort, so powerful my name has been slipped to him under the table after swearing not to reveal his Source. (Eh? Are these people serious?) So I ask him a few questions and based on his answers tell him: 'Sounds like carb ice.' But that's the one thing he's sure it's NOT. No way. Can't be. EVERYONE says so. In fact, his particular engine is (or was) totally ice-proof; didn't even need a carb heat system. Has one of them slide- valve carbs -- no venturi therefore no possibility of icing. And besides, he always uses a 'dryer' in his gas, just like he does in all of his vehicles and he has NEVER had any problems with ice, yada-yada- yada... By now it's obvious I'm dealing with an idiot. I offer the fellow a whiff of reality, pointing out that the 'dryer' was probably a contributing factor since it not only diluted the energy content of his fuel, it contained methanol (ie, wood alcohol) which happens to have an endotherm of about 300 degrees -- twice that of ethyl ethanol (ie, regular alcohol). The probability that ice was a contributing factor to his 'unexplained' loss of power is now about 99% and rising. His response? "That can't be right." And the world's largest kill-file gains another entry. -------------------------------------------------------- Carb and manifold icing is simple physics, clearly spelled out in all the manuals. Even so, you can find messages to this Group from guys BRAGGING about their ice-proof engines, as if the laws of physics don't apply to them. (Which is really kinda scary when you think about it. I mean, these people are allowed to breed and vote and share air- space with normal people... ) Your life is worth something. (Yes, even to me :-) Don't allow yourself to be murdered by all those goods friends with their swell advice. Think for YOURSELF. Reality may be a bitch but so is ignorance. And denial. -R.S.Hoover PS - Gasoline is 'endothermic.' That means it absorbs heat from its surroundings when it changes its state from a liquid to a gas. Straight-run gasoline (ie, without additives) has an endotherm of about 40F, meaning your carb can produce ice cubes on a balmy 72F day. Or even warmer, if the gasoline contains certain additives. Cooler day? Guaranteed ice-generator. Ethanol, that lovely stuff the politicians are pushing, thanks to ADM's lobbyests, has an endotherm of 150F. Mix that with your gas and you have to start thinking ice even here in the desert southwest. But of course, that can't be right :-) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I posted the above to Yahoo's AirVW Group about six months and continue to get mail from idiots insisting slide-valve carbs can't ice- up since they don't have a butterfly valve. I've reposted it here in the interest of safety. If you know of someone running a slide-valve carb without any provision for carb heat please give them a nudge toward reality. -RSH |
#2
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Ice
On 20 May 2007 21:10:52 -0700, " wrote:
Carb and manifold icing is simple physics, clearly spelled out in all the manuals. Even so, you can find messages to this Group from guys BRAGGING about their ice-proof engines, as if the laws of physics don't apply to them. (Which is really kinda scary when you think about it. I mean, these people are allowed to breed and vote and share air- space with normal people... ) There's a particular type of homebuilt out there that does not have a standard carb heat setup...it apparently just uses the ambient air in the engine compartment. It has an accident rate due to carb ice that's over twice that of the overall homebuilt fleet. Ron Wanttaja |
#3
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Ice
Ok, so I don't have an experimental. I do, however, have a carb
on the Continental E-225 in my Bonanza. Its a Bendix PS5-C. There is no true carb heat on the early Bonanzas. There maybe something labeled 'carb heat', but what it really is is alternate air. It allows air into to the carb from inside the cowling, bypassing the air filter. The cowling air will be warmer than ambient, but probably not nearly like it would be if there was a heater muff like there is on other planes. I have been told that the PS-5C is immune to carb icing which is why the Bonanza is set up the way it is. I'm not sure I can buy. Yes, the PS5-C has no float, but it still has jets and a butterfly valve. What I can say is that in 14 years of flying this plane, I've never experienced carb icing with it. And a a fair amount of that time was in very wet IFR conditions. I don't know what to think. -- Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Hood River, OR (soon to be Boise, ID) |
#4
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Ice
On May 21, 9:46 am, Frank Stutzman wrote:
I have been told that the PS-5C is immune to carb icing which is why the Bonanza is set up the way it is. I'm not sure I can buy. Yes, the PS5-C has no float, but it still has jets and a butterfly valve. The first fuel-injected Bonanza was the J35; earlier carbureted models are somewhat susceptible to induction icing. I say 'somewhat' because the PS-5C is a pressure carburetor which injects the fuel into the throat rather than letting it be drawn in by vacuum; the carb needs less of a pressure drop in the venturi and therefore sees less of a temperature drop than a vacuum carb. This makes it somewhat (that word again!) resistant to icing. I believe that those Bonanzas also heat their intake air downstream of the carburetor (proximity to exhaust pipes, oil sump? -- not sure) and that further reduces the chance of cooling the mixture to the dewpoint. As for those slide-valve carbs, they do have venturis -- you just can't see them because they're made of air! Downstream of an orifice a high-speed airstream first contracts and then expands, even if there's only wide-open space there. This invisible venturi suffers the usual pressure/temperature drop and of course the evaporation of the fuel droplets makes things worse. Not only can these carbs ice up, they're notorious in the motorcycle world for doing so. Early customer fixes involved stove-boxes rigged around the carbs; modern slide-valve carb bike engines have these factory-made. |
#5
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Ice
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#6
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Ice
In article ,
N114RW wrote: Good post, and good reminder. One comment. As I understand it, carb ice is most common on warm (70 degree or so), humid, days. As the temperature drops, so does the moisture in the air. The most ice-susceptible air, I have found, is that between 20F and 55F, with very high humidity -- not to say that a higher or lower range would not cause ice. It is good practice to install carb heat and USE it -- especially in high humidity conditions. |
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