Controller screwed up?

In a previous article, Newps said:
It's called anticipated separation. By the time the MD80 gets on the
runway you're long gone.

Are there at least some restrictions on when this can be used? I'm hoping
that it can only be done in good VFR conditions when the tower can see
both aircraft?


--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
"Fly the airplane, then work the problem"
-- Rick Grant (quoting RCAF pilot training)

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in news:fc4fe3$1ab$1
@xen1.xcski.com:

I was coming in to land on RWY 4 at ROC. There was a North West MD80 at
the hold short line. Almost as soon as my mains touched down, before I'd
slowed down, the tower controller cleared the North West flight to take
off. I came back with "977 is still on the runway on runway 4", with a
rather urgent tone of voice because I didn't want to become the next
Tenerife. The controller, instead of cancelling the take off clearance
for the North West flight like I expected, came back with my taxi
instructions.

I'm hoping the North West flight saw me or heard me, but it seems to me
that it was wrong for the controller to rely on that. I'm going to file
a NASA form, but is there anything else I should do?

Hi Paul,
It's a pretty common practice at the larger airports.

There are a few realities he

1) The takeoff clearance is just that - a clearance. The pilot is still
responsible for safety of flight. ie: Just because you're cleared into
class B airspace doesn't mean you can fly into traffic in the air either.
Certainly, while the MD-80 was sitting #1 waiting to take off, he heard
tower clearing you to land, and saw you land and watched as you turned off
the runway.

2) As others have pointed out, you certainly had enough of a head start on
him that unless you had some sort of engine failure you would be clear of
the runway long before he caught up to you.

That said, in that situation, if you were to have some sort of problem and
couldn't clear the runway in a responsible amount of time, I would
immediately let Tower know.

Are there at least some restrictions on when this can be used? I'm hoping
that it can only be done in good VFR conditions when the tower can see
both aircraft?

No restrictions but common sense come in to play there.

On Sep 10, 6:11 pm, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
I'm hoping the North West flight saw me or heard me, but it seems to me
that it was wrong for the controller to rely on that. I'm going to file
a NASA form, but is there anything else I should do?

Buy new underwear?

In article ,
says...
I was coming in to land on RWY 4 at ROC. There was a North West MD80 at
the hold short line. Almost as soon as my mains touched down, before I'd
slowed down, the tower controller cleared the North West flight to take
off. I came back with "977 is still on the runway on runway 4", with a
rather urgent tone of voice because I didn't want to become the next
Tenerife. The controller, instead of cancelling the take off clearance
for the North West flight like I expected, came back with my taxi
instructions.

I'm hoping the North West flight saw me or heard me, but it seems to me
that it was wrong for the controller to rely on that. I'm going to file
a NASA form, but is there anything else I should do?

Well I've read a few replies, and most seem to say it was ok. However,
they could be wrong, as surely it depends on the seperation. So I want
to know (and only you can tell us), where on the RWY *they* were, and
where did *you* land (eg. threshold?) and how long is the RWY.

Some of the replies could be incorrect IMO, cos surely the controller
has to take into account that you may be forced to go round (for
whatever reason), and their seperation rule should take that into
account (at least I bloody hope it would

--
Duncan

How does the controller know you won't have a problem and not get off the
runway ?
I'm not sure what the regulations technically say about it but it doesn't
sound right logically.
A better policy would be to give position & hold until the other plane is
actually in the process of turning off, then when some clear action toward
the turnoff is commenced, anticipate it as cleared and give a takeoff
clearance.




"Newps" wrote in message
. ..
It's called anticipated separation. By the time the MD80 gets on the
runway you're long gone.




Paul Tomblin wrote:
I was coming in to land on RWY 4 at ROC. There was a North West MD80 at
the hold short line. Almost as soon as my mains touched down, before I'd
slowed down, the tower controller cleared the North West flight to take
off. I came back with "977 is still on the runway on runway 4", with a
rather urgent tone of voice because I didn't want to become the next
Tenerife. The controller, instead of cancelling the take off clearance
for the North West flight like I expected, came back with my taxi
instructions.

I'm hoping the North West flight saw me or heard me, but it seems to me
that it was wrong for the controller to rely on that. I'm going to file
a NASA form, but is there anything else I should do?

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...

I'm hoping the North West flight saw me or heard me, but it seems to me
that it was wrong for the controller to rely on that. I'm going to file
a NASA form, but is there anything else I should do?

No matter what everyone else has writen, I agree it was a dangerous
situation, and thing you should file the NASA form. If something delayed
your exit from the runway (mechanical?) you could have been killed.

In a previous article, Judah said:
2) As others have pointed out, you certainly had enough of a head start on
him that unless you had some sort of engine failure you would be clear of
the runway long before he caught up to you.

In an interesting coincidence, I was just bringing the plane back from
maintenance to deal with a problem where the engine would fail when
taxiing off the runway. It had happened twice at the end of a series of
touch and goes, never in the air or on a regular point to point flight.
They'd replaced the mags, and the problem seems like it might be fixed -
at least I did 4 touch and goes back at Genesee County where the work had
been done with no evidence of problems.


--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
So logically, if she weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood, and
therefore a witch.

In a previous article, Dave Doe said:
In article ,
says...
I was coming in to land on RWY 4 at ROC. There was a North West MD80 at
the hold short line. Almost as soon as my mains touched down, before I'd
slowed down, the tower controller cleared the North West flight to take
off. I came back with "977 is still on the runway on runway 4", with a
rather urgent tone of voice because I didn't want to become the next
Tenerife. The controller, instead of cancelling the take off clearance
for the North West flight like I expected, came back with my taxi
instructions.
Well I've read a few replies, and most seem to say it was ok. However,
they could be wrong, as surely it depends on the seperation. So I want
to know (and only you can tell us), where on the RWY *they* were, and
where did *you* land (eg. threshold?) and how long is the RWY.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0709/00351AD.PDF
RWY 4 is 8001 feet long. The NWA flight was at the threshold. I had
touched down on the threshold and had just rolled past A1 and was trying
to decide if I should try to turn off A2 or not (it's a high speed in the
other direction, but wide enough that it doesn't look like it.) So I'd
guess I was 2000 feet from him.


--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
I [was] looking at 30-40 of the most beautiful women in the world, each
eating a lollipop. Weirdly, every one had a different technique, but none
were doing it wrong. --Bob Church

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 00:38:13 +1200, Dave Doe wrote in
:

I've read a few replies, and most seem to say it was ok. However,
they could be wrong, ...


Apparently it's the controller's call:

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...a/7110.65R.pdf
FAA Order 7110.65R Air Traffic Control

3-9-5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION
Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until
prescribed separation exists if there is a reasonable
assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts takeoff
roll.

3-9-6. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION
Separate a departing aircraft from a preceding
departing or arriving aircraft using the same runway
by ensuring that it does not begin takeoff roll until:
a. The other aircraft has departed and crossed the
runway end or turned to avert any conflict. (See
FIG 3-9-1.) If you can determine distances by
reference to suitable landmarks, the other aircraft
needs only be airborne if the following minimum
distance exists between aircraft: (See FIG 3-9-2.)
1. When only Category I aircraft are involved-
3,000 feet.
2. When a Category I aircraft is preceded by a
Category II aircraft- 3,000 feet.
3. When either the succeeding or both are
Category II aircraft- 4,500 feet.
4. When either is a Category III aircraft-
6,000 feet.
5. When the succeeding aircraft is a helicopter,
visual separation may be applied in lieu of using
distance minima.