IGC Decision on 13.5 meter class - Yes or No?

Hi All:

I saw on X's report from Seniors that the 20-meter class was approved
by the IGC. Any info on if the small wing class proposal got passed?

Tim EY

On Mar 8, 11:16*pm, Tim wrote:
Hi All:

I saw on *X's report from Seniors that the 20-meter class was approved
by the IGC. Any info on if the small wing class proposal got passed?

Tim EY

13.5 class approved. No handicapping. No weight limit. Ballast
allowed.

This info was passed along to me as "public, but not yet official
(pending publication)".

What's the wingspan of an ASG-29 with no tips ;-)?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Mar 9, 5:47*am, T8 wrote:
On Mar 8, 11:16*pm, Tim wrote:

Hi All:

I saw on *X's report from Seniors that the 20-meter class was approved
by the IGC. Any info on if the small wing class proposal got passed?

Tim EY

13.5 class approved. *No handicapping. *No weight limit. *Ballast
allowed.

This info was passed along to me as "public, but not yet official
(pending publication)".

What's the wingspan of an ASG-29 with no tips ;-)?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Thanks for the info. I figured I'd try r.a.s. before going to my
overseas contacts for any preliminary information.
Tim EY

On Mar 9, 11:48*am, Tim wrote:
On Mar 9, 5:47*am, T8 wrote:





On Mar 8, 11:16*pm, Tim wrote:

Hi All:

I saw on *X's report from Seniors that the 20-meter class was approved
by the IGC. Any info on if the small wing class proposal got passed?

Tim EY

13.5 class approved. *No handicapping. *No weight limit. *Ballast
allowed.

This info was passed along to me as "public, but not yet official
(pending publication)".

What's the wingspan of an ASG-29 with no tips ;-)?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Thanks for the info. I figured I'd try r.a.s. before going to my
overseas contacts for any preliminary information.
Tim EY- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Posting on a national webpage - unofficial:
Notes from the IGC meeting which finished yesterday in Lausanne,

8.1.1 Pilot Selection Process - Use the IGC Pilot Ranking List to
reduce the number of entries in oversubscribed championships. Amended
to use Country Ranking, not Pilot Ranking. ~ Amended version
Accepted.
8.1.2 Immediate application of Pilot Selection Process (1st April 2010)
(2/3rds majority required) Advance the effective date of proposal
8.1.1 by 18 months ~ Accepted
8.1.3 FAI Decentralised Gliding Competition. Seek a partner in a
venture to create a decentralized competition, with tasks defined by
FAI. ~ Accepted
8.1.4 IGC Safety Strategy and Plan. Continued work by Bureau ~
Accepted
8.1.5 Special budget for History Committee 2500 Euro for expenses ~
Accepted
8.2.2 Proposal for establishment of Continental Records (Year 2) Start
keeping Continental Records after October 1, 2010 ~ Accepted
8.3.2a Establishment of 13.5m Class. New class ~ Accepted
8.3.2b Handicap in 13.5m Class. Use handicaps ~ Rejected
8.3.2c Use of ballast in 13.5m Class. No ballast ~ Rejected, (and the
MTOW is not limited )
8.3.2d Sub-classes in 13.5m Class. Recognize dominant type within
class ~ Rejected
8.4.2 Revised Annex A of the Sporting Code Section 3 (Year 2) The new
Annex A, to become effective October 1, 2010. Amended to become
effective April 1, 2010. ~ Amended version Accepted.
8.5.2 Revision to Annex D (Competition quality factor) Computational
change ~ Accepted
8.6.1 Introduction of 20m Two-seater class at WGC. Add 20M2S class to
WGC, beginning in 2012 ~ Accepted, (but not for 2012)
8.7.1 Use of GPS Position recorders for silver and gold badge flights.
Remove some of IGC’s authority for approval of position recorders ~
Accepted
8.8.1 Acceptance of discussing the notion from Australia (2/3rds
majority required) - Allow 8.8.2 to be discussed ~ Accepted
8.8.2. Allocation of WWGC and JWGC outsideEurope. At least once every
10 years ~ Accepted
Site of 16th European Gliding Championships 2011 Open, 18 Meter, 15
Meter ~ Pociunai, Lithuania
Site of 16th European Gliding Championships 2011 Standard, Club,
World, 20 Meter 2 Seat ~ Nitra, Slovakia
Site of 7th Junior World Gliding Championships 2013 ~ Leszno, Poland
Site of 6th Women’s World Gliding Championships 2013 ~ Issoudun,
France
Lilienthal Medal Ross Macintyre (New Zealand)
Majewska Medal Beryl Hartley (Australia)
Gehriger Diploma Igidio Galli (Italy)
2011 meeting ~ Lausanne, Switzerland, March 4-5, 2011

*****
It may be right, or not... use at own risk.

Dan

Yes! Probably doable on the 29 and the Ventus 2Cs...
Jim

On Mar 9, 3:47*am, T8 wrote:
What's the wingspan of an ASG-29 with no tips ;-)?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Mar 9, 2:06*pm, JS wrote:
Yes! Probably doable on the 29 and the Ventus 2Cs...
Jim

On Mar 9, 3:47*am, T8 wrote:



What's the wingspan of an ASG-29 with no tips ;-)?

-Evan Ludeman / T8- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Shortened 18M ships will probably be to heavy, but there are lots of
15M ships that could get a tip cut and new winglets.
I predict very few new ships will result from this.
UH

On Mar 9, 3:53*pm, wrote:


Shortened 18M ships will probably be to heavy, but there are lots of
15M ships that could get a tip cut and new winglets.
I predict very few new ships will result from this.
UH

That was meant in jest! I don't have numbers handy, but would wing
loading must be 10 # dry. I doubt there's enough aileron on the
inboard wing section to fly it that way anyway.

I don't understand the purpose of this new class. I suspect neither
do the people who promoted it, because my sense is these guys were
more interested in lightweight, lower cost gliders, were generally
opposed to water ballast and generally okay with handicapping.


-Evan Ludeman / T8

On 3/9/2010 1:23 PM, T8 wrote:
On Mar 9, 3:53 pm, wrote:


Shortened 18M ships will probably be to heavy, but there are lots of
15M ships that could get a tip cut and new winglets.
I predict very few new ships will result from this.
UH

That was meant in jest! I don't have numbers handy, but would wing
loading must be 10 # dry. I doubt there's enough aileron on the
inboard wing section to fly it that way anyway.


I recall that KS flew an ASW-17 in 15M class.



I don't understand the purpose of this new class. I suspect neither
do the people who promoted it, because my sense is these guys were
more interested in lightweight, lower cost gliders, were generally
opposed to water ballast and generally okay with handicapping.


Way too many classes.




-Evan Ludeman / T8

I don't understand the purpose of this new class. *I suspect neither
do the people who promoted it, because my sense is these guys were
more interested in lightweight, lower cost gliders, were generally
opposed to water ballast and generally okay with handicapping.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

I don't know, but I can guess. This is the successor to the world
class. They wanted some place to put the PW5s, not out to pasture, and
for some reason they did not want to create something like the US
sports class with a wide handicap range. Given that decision, I second-
guess they did not put in handicaps or a water ballast restriction,
because handicaps would have killed development and a waterballast
restriction would mean that winning gliders would be lead bombs
unsuitable for club use.

But the end result is a a new class, and the obvious gliders that
will do well in it have not even been designed. The class winner here
will be something like a sparrowhawk with waterballast.

13.5, standard, 15, 18, 20, open, club, junior, feminine is WAY too
many classes. No country can have nationals and field teams in all
separate classes. The task for the IGC is to figure out how to reverse
this insanity and end up with no more than 3 classes, without
devaluing the existing fleet, not how to add more classes. I'm afraid
"merge classes with handicaps for gliders produced before x date" is
the only way to do it. Flame suit on -- or suggest a better way.

John Cochrane

On Mar 9, 5:18*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
I don't understand the purpose of this new class. *I suspect neither
do the people who promoted it, because my sense is these guys were
more interested in lightweight, lower cost gliders, were generally
opposed to water ballast and generally okay with handicapping.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

I don't know, but I can guess. This is the successor to the world
class. They wanted some place to put the PW5s, not out to pasture, and
for some reason they did not want to create something like the US
sports class with a wide handicap range. Given that decision, I second-
guess they did not put in handicaps or a water ballast restriction,
because handicaps would have killed development and a waterballast
restriction would mean that winning gliders would be lead bombs
unsuitable for club use.

But the end result is a *a new class, and the obvious gliders that
will do well in it have not even been designed. The class winner here
will be something like a sparrowhawk with waterballast.

13.5, standard, 15, 18, 20, open, club, junior, feminine is WAY too
many classes. No country can have nationals and field teams in all
separate classes. The task for the IGC is to figure out how to reverse
this insanity and end up with no more than 3 classes, without
devaluing the existing fleet, not how to add more classes. *I'm afraid
"merge classes with handicaps for gliders produced before x date" is
the only way to do it. Flame suit on -- or suggest a better way.

John Cochrane

Well, clearly the IGC as it currently exists isn't going to do that.

Technology and cost have made Std irrelevant: the ships are at least
98% as good as 15m... and cost 98% as much. Me, I'll keep my landing
flaps, thanks. 15m is still relevant, but anyone with enough scratch
to buy a 15m (or std) ship at today's new prices demonstrably isn't
bothered by the incremental cost of going to 18m, often with a motor.
Open is an interesting niche, relevant mostly because of the wonders
that guys like Dick Butler will spend tens of thousands of hours of
labor to produce. It's cool just because it is the absolute limit of
the state of the art and they are great fun to watch. Unfortunately,
the only place you can assemble a large enough grid of these ships to
have a meaningful race is at the Worlds.

Personally, I agree with Charlie Spratt that the best racing class we
ever had in the US is 15m. Still is, although attrition will slowly
erode our numbers. I don't think there has been a new 15m racer
licensed in at least two years and no meaningful number in five or
six. I can't justify 4x the price of my current ship to buy a 2 or 3%
better 18m sled.

I'll be racing 15m until the lights go out. Took me long enough to
get here, I ain't leaving the party that easy. I invite y'all to join
me. It's good fun.

-Evan Ludeman / T8