I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE.....

From the NY Times letters to the editor..

To The Editor:

" I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America and
to the principles for which it stands, one nation under law, indivisible, with
liberty and justice for all."
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr wrote:

From the NY Times letters to the editor..

To The Editor:

" I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America
and to the principles for which it stands, one nation under law,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Not bad. I still prefer the Pledge of Allegiance without the 1954
additions, though. The 1911 additions were merely for clarification, but
the 1954 addition was a crass political move.

-Marc

(In case anyone's wondering, the original pledge was merely
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag and to the Republic for which it
stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

The phrase "of the United States of America" was added in 1911.)

--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

Subject: I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE.....
From: (Marc Reeve)
Date: 10/20/03 12:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

From the NY Times letters to the editor..

To The Editor:

" I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America
and to the principles for which it stands, one nation under law,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Not bad. I still prefer the Pledge of Allegiance without the 1954
additions, though. The 1911 additions were merely for clarification, but
the 1954 addition was a crass political move.

-Marc

(In case anyone's wondering, the original pledge was merely
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag and to the Republic for which it
stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

The phrase "of the United States of America" was added in 1911.)



Agreed.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Marc Reeve wrote:

ArtKramr wrote:

From the NY Times letters to the editor..

To The Editor:

" I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America
and to the principles for which it stands, one nation under law,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Not bad. I still prefer the Pledge of Allegiance without the 1954
additions, though. The 1911 additions were merely for clarification, but
the 1954 addition was a crass political move.

In addition to losing the "under god," (before I finally abandoned saying the
pledge in the 7th grade as amounting to worship of an icon, as well as an
essentially meaningless but nevertheless coercive "loyalty oath," at least as
practiced in school), I tended to substitute "seeking liberty" for "with
liberty", as it more accurately reflected the ideal while acknowledging the
reality. But I rather like the letters to the editors version, with that one
change. I'd stick commas after "Constitution" and "America," to make it easier
to say (more pauses for breath). And I've never been all that happy about
"indivisible"; It kind of denies the whole idea of the Declaration of
Independence.

More importantly, we need to reduce the frequency of usage of the Pledge and
the national anthem. Constant repetition in purely routine and even trivial
circumstances cheapens them.

Of course, I've also long thought that the "Star-Spangled Banner" should be
replaced by "America the Beautiful," as the latter is both a better song and
singable by other than opera stars, although it would obviously need some
replacement lyrics for "God shed his grace on Thee" and some modern PC
changes. As in the case of the SSB, most people only know the first verse.
Here's the whole thing:

America the Beautiful - 1913

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for pilgrim feet
Whose stern, impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America!
God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

O beautiful for heroes proved In liberating strife.
Who more than self the country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America!
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness
And every gain divine!

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for halcyon skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the enameled plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till souls wax fair as earth and air
And music-hearted sea!

O beautiful for pilgrims feet,
Whose stern impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America ! America !
God shed his grace on thee
Till paths be wrought through
wilds of thought
By pilgrim foot and knee!

O beautiful for glory-tale
Of liberating strife
When once and twice,
for man's avail
Men lavished precious life !
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till selfish gain no longer stain
The banner of the free!

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till nobler men keep once again
Thy whiter jubilee!

Guy

More importantly, we need to reduce the frequency of usage of the Pledge and
the national anthem. Constant repetition in purely routine and even trivial
circumstances cheapens them.

One of the worst feelings concerning the flag that I have had was when I saw a
Cub Scout troop erode the practice of saying the pledge to little more than a
joke. They used my flag, I taught them how to fold it, etc., but after a year
or so, the pack leader said we could 'forego the usual ceremony' which he
reduced to a quick pledge, while he held one of those ridiculous little
hand-sized flags (3"x5" on a tiny stick). To him, it made more sense than
"dragging out the big flag every time". I felt more than a little disgusted
that this former Eagle Scout thought we were wasting time teaching the basics
of respecting the symbol of our nation.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

"Gordon" wrote in message
...
More importantly, we need to reduce the frequency of usage of the Pledge
and
the national anthem. Constant repetition in purely routine and even
trivial
circumstances cheapens them.

One of the worst feelings concerning the flag that I have had was when I
saw a
Cub Scout troop erode the practice of saying the pledge to little more
than a
joke. They used my flag, I taught them how to fold it, etc., but after a
year
or so, the pack leader said we could 'forego the usual ceremony' which he
reduced to a quick pledge, while he held one of those ridiculous little
hand-sized flags (3"x5" on a tiny stick). To him, it made more sense than
"dragging out the big flag every time". I felt more than a little
disgusted
that this former Eagle Scout thought we were wasting time teaching the
basics
of respecting the symbol of our nation.

With all respect Gordon, this sort of 'respecting the symbol of our nation'
is probably very hard for most Europeans to understand. Particularly this
one, to whom the UK flag is a symbol of an Empire whose great days are
behind it, the EU one a symbol of a dream whose time has not yet come, and
the Saltire a symbol of a nation which sold itself out, or was sold out, a
very long time ago.

Just one of the factors which makes it hard for us to understand each other
from the different sides of the Atlantic.

John

John Mullen wrote:

"Gordon" wrote in message
...
More importantly, we need to reduce the frequency of usage of the Pledge
and
the national anthem. Constant repetition in purely routine and even
trivial
circumstances cheapens them.

One of the worst feelings concerning the flag that I have had was when I
saw a
Cub Scout troop erode the practice of saying the pledge to little more
than a
joke. They used my flag, I taught them how to fold it, etc., but after a
year
or so, the pack leader said we could 'forego the usual ceremony' which he
reduced to a quick pledge, while he held one of those ridiculous little
hand-sized flags (3"x5" on a tiny stick). To him, it made more sense than
"dragging out the big flag every time". I felt more than a little
disgusted
that this former Eagle Scout thought we were wasting time teaching the
basics
of respecting the symbol of our nation.

With all respect Gordon, this sort of 'respecting the symbol of our nation'
is probably very hard for most Europeans to understand. Particularly this
one, to whom the UK flag is a symbol of an Empire whose great days are
behind it, the EU one a symbol of a dream whose time has not yet come, and
the Saltire a symbol of a nation which sold itself out, or was sold out, a
very long time ago.

Just one of the factors which makes it hard for us to understand each other
from the different sides of the Atlantic.

John

Depending on venue, most people think the last line of the National Anthem is
either

"Play Ball!"

or

"Gentlemen, Start Your Engines!"

( Definite RAM content for this one, considering the obligatory flyovers)

Bob McKellar

"John Mullen" wrote:

[snip]

With all respect Gordon, this sort of 'respecting the symbol of our nation'
is probably very hard for most Europeans to understand. Particularly this
one, to whom the UK flag is a symbol of an Empire whose great days are
behind it, the EU one a symbol of a dream whose time has not yet come, and
the Saltire a symbol of a nation which sold itself out, or was sold out, a
very long time ago.

A very telling statement, to be sure.

You also summed it nicely when you wrote in the "why all the
Nazi/German threads" the following:

************************************************** **********************************
John Mullen:

US patriotism can look somewhat quaint and simplistic from a European
perspective. Ironically, the preservation of freedom of expression is
one of the things you can justly be somewhat proud of. I just wonder
how many USAians actually understand what it means.
************************************************** ***********************************

Most "USAians" are patriotic and justifiably so and know EXACTLY what
the "preservation of freedom of expression" means. In other words,
your comment is a bit of a troll (or a jab at Americans) and you know
it, John.

Reminds me of another telling comment from a UK bud who recently
visited. I picked him at the airport and drove him back to my house
for his week-long stay. Observing all the U.S. flags waving in the
breeze up and down the neighborhood, the Brit blurts out something
like, "Why does everyone fly the American flag?"

Rather than snatch up his stinkbait by explaining the obvious and
come back with something like, "well, if you have to ask..." I told
him to ask my Hungarian neighbor who lives across the street the
exact same question.

My Hungarian friend, a meat-cutter at one of the local supermarkets,
is old enough to have lived through the Hungarian Revolution of 1956
and remained in Hungary until the early '70's when he finally
immigrated to the U.S. He proudly flies Old Glory and also has
several U.S. flag decals plastered on his late-model pickup truck.

My bud from the UK never did bother to ask my Hungarian neighbor
the question pertaining to "why all the U.S. flags everywhere?" and
I wasn't about to waste my breath trying to explain it to him. You
see, my UK pal simply didn't want to hear the answer -- especially
not from some Hungarian whom could've provided a very poignant
explanation to my cocky UK bud. Deep down, my UK pal knows damn
good and well why Americans proudly pledge their allegiance to the
flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it
stands!

And based on his VERY telling comment above regarding the UK's
bygone glory days, Mr. Mullen also knows why as well. Like my UK
bud who recently visited, Mr. Mullen's innocent display of "ignorance"
as to why we cherish our flag is utterly transparent and it's obvious
that he is simply jealous and resentful.

With all respect Gordon, this sort of 'respecting the symbol of our nation'
is probably very hard for most Europeans to understand.

I doubt if I could clear it up, but I grew up thinking that our flag stood for
everyone on earth who wanted to live free. I know that time has proven this
notion to be wrong, but I also know that 29 of my friends gave their lives in
US Navy aircraft so that the rest of us could live ours in relative peace. I
think that when folks have died under this banner of ours, for no other reason
than to earn freedom for people in other nations, its a symbol to be held with
pride. I know - impossible to explain what that flag means but it represents
the freedom that all people deserve, to me.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
news
"John Mullen" wrote:

[snip]

With all respect Gordon, this sort of 'respecting the symbol of our
nation'
is probably very hard for most Europeans to understand. Particularly this
one, to whom the UK flag is a symbol of an Empire whose great days are
behind it, the EU one a symbol of a dream whose time has not yet come,
and
the Saltire a symbol of a nation which sold itself out, or was sold out,
a
very long time ago.

A very telling statement, to be sure.

You also summed it nicely when you wrote in the "why all the
Nazi/German threads" the following:


************************************************** **************************
********
John Mullen:

US patriotism can look somewhat quaint and simplistic from a European
perspective. Ironically, the preservation of freedom of expression is
one of the things you can justly be somewhat proud of. I just wonder
how many USAians actually understand what it means.

************************************************** **************************
*********

Most "USAians" are patriotic and justifiably so and know EXACTLY what
the "preservation of freedom of expression" means. In other words,
your comment is a bit of a troll (or a jab at Americans) and you know
it, John.

Only in your mind, Mike. You maybe have to accept that this is an
international medium, and that therefore you may have non-Americans
contributing to it. You'll get used to it.

Reminds me of another telling comment from a UK bud who recently
visited. I picked him at the airport and drove him back to my house
for his week-long stay. Observing all the U.S. flags waving in the
breeze up and down the neighborhood, the Brit blurts out something
like, "Why does everyone fly the American flag?"

Rather than snatch up his stinkbait by explaining the obvious and
come back with something like, "well, if you have to ask..." I told
him to ask my Hungarian neighbor who lives across the street the
exact same question.

My Hungarian friend, a meat-cutter at one of the local supermarkets,
is old enough to have lived through the Hungarian Revolution of 1956
and remained in Hungary until the early '70's when he finally
immigrated to the U.S. He proudly flies Old Glory and also has
several U.S. flag decals plastered on his late-model pickup truck.

My bud from the UK never did bother to ask my Hungarian neighbor
the question pertaining to "why all the U.S. flags everywhere?" and
I wasn't about to waste my breath trying to explain it to him. You
see, my UK pal simply didn't want to hear the answer -- especially
not from some Hungarian whom could've provided a very poignant
explanation to my cocky UK bud. Deep down, my UK pal knows damn
good and well why Americans proudly pledge their allegiance to the
flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it
stands!

I do get your point here. But I'm not an American and to me it's all a bit
of a mystery and to be honest a bore, that level of 'my country, right or
wrong'. We've been there before here.

And based on his VERY telling comment above regarding the UK's
bygone glory days, Mr. Mullen also knows why as well. Like my UK
bud who recently visited, Mr. Mullen's innocent display of "ignorance"
as to why we cherish our flag is utterly transparent and it's obvious
that he is simply jealous and resentful.

Hey, Mike, you started really well in the first person and now you're on 'Mr
Mullen' and 'he'!

Let's make this really simple (I think it is required!)

*Not everybody here is from your country*

Lots of European people really like and respect American ideals but to
criticise US foreign policy is not necessarily trolling.

I assure you I'm not jealous or resentful!

John