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FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!



 
 
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  #201  
Old August 21st 15, 11:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
MNLou
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Posts: 271
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

I too have waited a while to weigh in. Here is my $0.02 -

I purchased and installed FLARM to be a tool to avoid a mid-air collision with another aircraft. We should not do anything to reduce the effectiveness of FLARM for that purpose. If the current Stealth mode does reduce the effectiveness, I am strongly against using it.

If we want to lobby the FLARM folks to create a Competition mode that keeps the current level of collision avoidance information while masking all other info, fine.

If we want to fly with the current collision avoidance effectiveness with all the other data, that's fine too. However, I believe it will unavoidably lead to more "head down" time.

Lou
  #202  
Old August 22nd 15, 12:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On 8/21/2015 3:27 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 2:57:12 PM UTC-5,
wrote:

From the information I'm seeing, Flarm in a reduced capability
mode(competition mode or such)will almost certainly be in effect at the
WGC level. I'm curious as to how you will feel when your 2 friends team
fly using the capabilities of Flarm to keep track of each other,
including climb rates, without needing to talk on the radio. I, for one,
will be seriously not happy. How about weather radar? How about near real
time display of all competitors position, track, altitude, and climb
rate? How about the crew sending tactical info to the pilot? The question
becomes how far do we open the door and what are the likely affects on
our sport? UH


I think it would be fun! The more info the better, and the person/team that
uses it the best, and flies the best, will still win.

All sports change to absorb new technology - look at the America's cup or
Formula 1!


By way of Devil's advocacy...when I look at America's Cup and Formula 1, I see
two of the most expensive sports in the world; both have been that way for
"quite some time now." Arguably, each has *always* been at the pinnacles of
their respective sports' costs. You might even argue that both today are
examples of "If you build it, they will come," sorts of sports in audience
terms. How exactly might we make that work in soaring?

FWIW, in both sports, there's far more participation in headcount terms in the
lesser expensive spectra...

Bob W.
  #203  
Old August 22nd 15, 01:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
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Posts: 1,224
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:23:09 -0600, BobW wrote:

On 8/21/2015 3:27 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 2:57:12 PM UTC-5,
wrote:

From the information I'm seeing, Flarm in a reduced capability
mode(competition mode or such)will almost certainly be in effect at
the WGC level. I'm curious as to how you will feel when your 2 friends
team fly using the capabilities of Flarm to keep track of each other,
including climb rates, without needing to talk on the radio. I, for
one, will be seriously not happy. How about weather radar? How about
near real time display of all competitors position, track, altitude,
and climb rate? How about the crew sending tactical info to the pilot?
The question becomes how far do we open the door and what are the
likely affects on our sport? UH


I think it would be fun! The more info the better, and the person/team
that uses it the best, and flies the best, will still win.

All sports change to absorb new technology - look at the America's cup
or Formula 1!


By way of Devil's advocacy...when I look at America's Cup and Formula 1,
I see two of the most expensive sports in the world; both have been that
way for "quite some time now." Arguably, each has *always* been at the
pinnacles of their respective sports' costs. You might even argue that
both today are examples of "If you build it, they will come," sorts of
sports in audience terms. How exactly might we make that work in
soaring?

FWIW, in both sports, there's far more participation in headcount terms
in the lesser expensive spectra...

With all due respect, the active participation in headcount terms is
bugger all. 20 or so drivers in F1 and under 20 yachts with crews of
around 10 in the AmCup aren't exactly large numbers of participants in
global terms. The numbers who will take the trouble to go to the track to
watch are also pretty insignificant compared to the headcount of those
whose total participation consists of vegging out in front of the goggle
box.

This is the exact opposite of soaring, where almost the entirety of
people involved in the sport are either active participants or those who
have stopped flying due to infirmity or age. We have almost no passive
spectators and I, for one, am happy with this situation because soaring,
along with ocean sailing racing and mountaineering, is one of the least
spectator-friendly sports in existence.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #204  
Old August 22nd 15, 02:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Posts: 504
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On 8/21/2015 6:22 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:23:09 -0600, BobW wrote:

Snip
By way of Devil's advocacy...when I look at America's Cup and Formula 1,
I see two of the most expensive sports in the world; both have been that
way for "quite some time now." Arguably, each has *always* been at the
pinnacles of their respective sports' costs. You might even argue that
both today are examples of "If you build it, they will come," sorts of
sports in audience terms. How exactly might we make that work in
soaring?

FWIW, in both sports, there's far more participation in headcount terms
in the lesser expensive spectra...

With all due respect, the active participation in headcount terms is
bugger all. 20 or so drivers in F1 and under 20 yachts with crews of
around 10 in the AmCup aren't exactly large numbers of participants in
global terms. The numbers who will take the trouble to go to the track to
watch are also pretty insignificant compared to the headcount of those
whose total participation consists of vegging out in front of the goggle
box.

This is the exact opposite of soaring, where almost the entirety of
people involved in the sport are either active participants or those who
have stopped flying due to infirmity or age. We have almost no passive
spectators and I, for one, am happy with this situation because soaring,
along with ocean sailing racing and mountaineering, is one of the least
spectator-friendly sports in existence.


Thanks for clarifying what I attempted poorly to suggest in my 2nd paragraph.
In the U.S., the Sports Car Club of America (to name one of the national
groups promoting "average Joe" racing for weekend warriors) might be
considered analogous to SSA and its membership when comparing SCCA to Formula
1, where the aoaring equivalent of Formula 1 doesn't exist...and never will
exist in any of my imaginary futures, except maybe in some perverted form in
support of nationally-backed warfare.

The point I sought to make is that in soaring - just as with automobile and
sailboat racing - there's some sort of inverse correlation between the cost
barriers to entry and participation levels. "Qu'elle surprise!"

Bob W.
  #205  
Old August 22nd 15, 05:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

Time for a bit of tough love:

Anyone that knowingly or willingly disables or permits to be disabled, diminishes or otherwise attenuates the function of a Flarm device should be tarred, feathered and excommunicated from the sport. I don't want to be in the same sky as you and your greedy, self-centred use of an aid to collision avoidance. As leeching doesn't impede the sports worst nor best (performance wise), I view you as being in the middle of the pack. Frustrated by your own inadequacies you jealously guard your position under the misguided notion that the world wants to steal your performance from you. Newsflash: you aren't as good as you think you are and your performance isn't a magic bullet for your competitors. As it takes two hands to clap (two gliders to splinter?) your selfishness could have very morbid consequences. How about we intermittently fiddle with your ripcord?

I compete for fun so I'm not going to pretend I'm as performance-orientated as some of the other posters within this topic. I reconcile my performance at the end of the day with one person - me. I can't do that if I've followed someone else around the sky.

CJ

And for the record, I'm:
Anti leaching
Anti team flying (unless specifically permitted)
Pro Flarm
  #206  
Old August 22nd 15, 01:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
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Posts: 1,224
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 19:57:06 -0600, BobW wrote:

The point I sought to make is that in soaring - just as with automobile
and sailboat racing - there's some sort of inverse correlation between
the cost barriers to entry and participation levels. "Qu'elle surprise!"

Not trying to nit pick, but is cost really as much of a deterrent to
participating in these sports as the time and mental effort you need to
put in to get and maintain the necessary skills? When you consider the
prices people are happy to pay for spectator seats or the latest &
greatest curved-screen TV just to sit and watch other people exercising
said skills I really do wonder.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #207  
Old August 22nd 15, 04:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 580
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

Not trying to nit pick, but is cost really as much of a deterrent to
participating in these sports as the time and mental effort you need to
put in to get and maintain the necessary skills? When you consider the
prices people are happy to pay for spectator seats or the latest &
greatest curved-screen TV just to sit and watch other people exercising
said skills I really do wonder.


Yes. Yes. Yes. The demand for soaring is not inelastic and, with all due respect, you're in denial to pretend otherwise.

Will cost deter someone who deeply desires to fly more than anything else in the world? Probably not; there are ways to fly sailplanes--and even compete--on a budget. But those diehards are not the ones we're talking about. It's the folks who have disposable income but a lot of different ways to spend it that swell the ranks.

Yes, there are other obstacles to soaring, especially to compete, among them (as you say) the time and effort it takes to get good at it. But money is important, too, especially when there are so many other ways to spend it these days, many of which can be shared with family members and enjoyed much more of the time than gliding (or racing cars or even sailing).

So we can make soaring (and I'm speaking mostly about competition since that's my focus) as expensive and difficult to access as possible. Or we can recognize that life is all about choices and tradeoffs, and do what we can to make it easier for the rest of us to participate. I've been in soaring since 1965. At one point it was the central focus of my life. Everything I did was planned around it, in particular contests. But I've been forced by circumstances to be out of flying a few times--and because I'm active, I've found other ways to challenge myself. And guess what? My life didn't end.

I'm older now, with different priorities. And I have two daughters in expensive American universities. And I'm divorced, which--though amicable--has had an impact on my financial situation. So frankly, if I hadn't been fortunate to buy my ASW 24 23 years ago (before children) and didn't know that it was still competitive today, I probably wouldn't be in soaring now. And if I had to buy $5,000 to $10,000 worth of avionics and tech gadgets to stay competitive, I probably wouldn't either.

So take it from someone who, over the past 50 years, has displayed about as much commitment to this sport as all but the most rabid and accomplished U..S. World Team pilots, COST MATTERS! End of rant.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.
  #208  
Old August 22nd 15, 05:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,134
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 9:34:28 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Time for a bit of tough love:

Anyone that knowingly or willingly disables or permits to be disabled, diminishes or otherwise attenuates the function of a Flarm device should be tarred, feathered and excommunicated from the sport. I don't want to be in the same sky as you and your greedy, self-centred use of an aid to collision avoidance. As leeching doesn't impede the sports worst nor best (performance wise), I view you as being in the middle of the pack. Frustrated by your own inadequacies you jealously guard your position under the misguided notion that the world wants to steal your performance from you. Newsflash: you aren't as good as you think you are and your performance isn't a magic bullet for your competitors. As it takes two hands to clap (two gliders to splinter?) your selfishness could have very morbid consequences. How about we intermittently fiddle with your ripcord?

I compete for fun so I'm not going to pretend I'm as performance-orientated as some of the other posters within this topic. I reconcile my performance at the end of the day with one person - me. I can't do that if I've followed someone else around the sky.

CJ

And for the record, I'm:
Anti leaching
Anti team flying (unless specifically permitted)
Pro Flarm


'I compete for fun' - That right there is your problem.

When winning becomes more important than competing, all kinds of weird things happen. I will note that I just discussed this with three recent national champions, none of them were particularly concerned about Flarm or leeching.
  #209  
Old August 22nd 15, 06:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 11:21:41 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

When winning becomes more important than competing, all kinds of weird things happen. I will note that I just discussed this with three recent national champions, none of them were particularly concerned about Flarm or leeching.


Exactly.

But back to the technology.

Sorry, I don't buy the "keep the cost down and it will grow" argument. Name ONE sport where that is happening. Look at the evolution of sailboats, windsurfers, race cars, gliders, bicycles (!), even track and field (priced a pair of running shoes lately?). Unless you intentionally freeze the technology, you are going to get an "arms race".

Now I have nothing against strict single-class rules - I used to race Lasers and they are about as identical as can be - but even there the serious competitors spend all sorts of cash on every possible legal tweak and high tech gizmo.

Sorry guys, the technology horse has bolted - you will see (at the upper levels of the sport) all sorts of fancy (and at first, expensive) technology. Which is exactly what happened when varios were invented, then when composite technology was introduced, then when nav/glide computers were introduced, then when GPS was introduced...PF, and by extension, remote tracking/enhanced situational awareness, is just the latest innovation that will be embraced by the sport and, IMO, make it more fun and appealing to the new generation of pilots. And since it's mainly electronics, the cost will invariably come down (Moore's law, etc.); just as how the once expensive state of the art racing gliders of the past eventually become the club ships and sports class racers of the "common man".

You hear pilots complaining that all these "aids" take away from what we are "measuring" in a glider race. I disagree. What a glider race is all about is speed: How fast can you make it around a task. And anything that allows you to go faster in a glider is progress.

Otherwise, we would all be floating around in Weihes staring at our pellet varios and trying to figure our where we are on our sectional charts, while preparing to land out in some horrible place...

So I say "Bring it on! Pump all the data into my cockpit that technology can access, and let me figure out how to use it to go faster!

And as an aside, my wife/crew, who used to love working start and finish gates, said that she would love to be involved in passing real time info to me inflight during a race - I really think real time involvement would be a way to expose more people to racing.

Oh, and, at least for me, a top of the line new open class glider is just as unattainable as an F-1 seat or the helm of an America's cup racer - so the comparison, while a bit of a tongue-in-cheek one, is valid for me!

Great thread,

Cheers,

Kirk
66
  #210  
Old August 22nd 15, 06:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
XC
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

Please remember this threat started out by saying P3 he competed at the 15m Nat's with stealth mode and really enjoyed it. It really did work fine as an anti-collision device.

I'd make sure that folks understand that FLARM sends two different messages to the display devices.

The $PFLAU sentence has priority and contains info about intruder alerts and obstacles. The contest ID is removed in stealth mode. Alerts are unaffected no matter the range. It really works quite well with the algorithm the FLARM people have developed.

The $PFLAA sentence is info about proximate aircraft displayed on your device. In stealth mode this info limited to aircraft within 2 km and +/- 300 meters vertically. Stealth or competition mode also removes ID, climb rate, track and speed from the display output for these proximate aircraft. It continues to use these variables to calculate the collision avoidance algorithm in $PFLAU.

Folks should read FLARM release notes for FLARM 6.02 Firmware, FLARM data port specification TFD-12 and FTD-14 FLARM Configuration Specification for full understanding. Anyway, we found it worked well and the contest was definitely still fun for all.

On another note, has anyone noticed the big divide on opinions on this topic for eastern pilots versus western pilots? I suspect the different kind of contest flying has something to do with this perception. Eastern contests have their lower working bands with land-outs being more common and more of a deciding in the results. Western contests have higher heights, faster speeds and better visibility. In the west land outs will definitely sink you but are more rare. They can also be quite remote and potentially scary.

XC


 




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