flaps again

Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.



Exactly!


Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ...
Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.



Exactly!
Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an emergency? :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Well, no, because there are no flaps on them. May be a bit extreme, but that is the way we used to teach it. If it's got
flaps, then use them for all 'normal' landings...

My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

EMERGENCY- A distress or an urgency condition.

DISTRESS- A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger
and of requiring immediate assistance.

URGENCY- A condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring timely
but not immediate assistance; a potential distress condition.

So I would say that the inability to extend flaps would be considered an
emergency only if it puts you in serious or imminent danger, or causes you to
be concerned about safety.

Blueskies wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ...
Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.


Exactly!
Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an emergency? :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Well, no, because there are no flaps on them. May be a bit extreme, but that is the way we used to teach it. If it's got
flaps, then use them for all 'normal' landings...



Absolutely. If you got um use um by all means. It's all in the manner of
approach to the issue (no pun intended :-).
The point I'm making is simply that a no flap landing doesn't HAVE to be
only an emergency procedure. It can also be treated as a normal landing
done at a pilot's discretion in conditions where a no flap landing might
be expeditious.
We used them all the time at a field we used that had a nice long runway
with a turn off at the end that was optimum to use to visit the local
coffee shop. Not only was is expeditious to land with no flaps, but it
was the perfect opportunity to practice a no flap landing.
Some instructors like the black and white approach to flight
instruction. I have never been a huge fan of this approach to teaching
flying. If I have a student learning in a 150 Cessna, naturally I want
that student to be using flaps as a normal way to land that airplane.
On the other hand, I don't want to teach that student to fly a Cessna
150. I want to teach that student to fly an AIRPLANE.
This means that if that student gets his certificate, then goes over to
airport B and wants to rent a Decathlon, I don't want him going over
there thinking that landing an airplane with no flaps is strictly an
emergency situation. I want him thinking simply that the Decathlon lands
with no flaps and that's no big deal, as he's already learned that this
is normal behavior and has as well been thoroughly acclimated as to what
to expect in different behavior from such an airplane.
It's no big deal really, and is all in how an instructor deals with
these issues.
Nothing I've described here takes away from the fact that if a pilot
flying an airplane equipped with flaps can't lower them for some reason,
that this situation isn't handled as an unusual landing for THAT
airplane and as such can be classified as an "emergency procedure" for
THAT airplane.

--
Dudley Henriques

On 1 Jan, 17:14, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
*Dudley Henriques wrote:

No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another
procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no
flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a
no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as
required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over
the aspects of no flap landings with every student.
I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the
student must be completely familiar with before solo.

The issue with no flaps landings is not that the landing itself is an
emergency, but that the pilot should recognize that the flaps didn't extend
and adjust his plan accordingly. *And understand the performance
implications.

Like many CFI's who came up during my period, (old people :-) I much
preferred to teach no flap landings to students as BOTH a possible
emergency AND an option that could be used by a good pilot who for a
viable and safe reason wanted to land long for a far end turnoff on an
exceptionally long runway for example.
Many of the airplanes we flew as trainers had no flaps; i.e. Cubs,
Colts, etc. You learned early on in these airplanes to fly the approach
properly and with no "devices" to help you control the landing speed.
These airplanes are still in use today and in many cases are priced low
enough that many students becoming aircraft owners for the first time
will end up purchasing an aircraft with no flaps. I personally know two
pilots who own a J3 and a Piper Colt; each have no flaps.

Flaps and their use are VERY aircraft specific. In some airplanes a POH
might define a no flap landing as an emergency. Others simply alter the
approach profile a bit. In the T38 Talon for example, (I use this as the
airplane is extremely high performance and landing cfg is critical for
the Talon) the procedure for a no flap landing is to add 15kts to the
normal landing speed...period! No big deal at all.

Landing a normal GA airplane with no flaps should not pose a good pilot
any problems at all, and training should reflect this.

The bottom line is that instructors should teach landings in a way that
defines every one of them as a unique experience dealing with a unique
and ever changing dynamic. No two landings that a pilot will make during
an entire career will ever be exactly the same. Each landing carries its
own individual fingerprint.
No flaps can be an emergency landing or it can simply be a pilot's
option. Either way, the pilot should be on top of it and have each
individual landing planned based on current conditions existing for any
given instant in time that pertain to THAT landing.


Hear hear.
I've often met pilots who use no flaps on landing in very gusty
conditions or stiff crosswinds. I've tried this and don't really see
the benifits. Like a lot of things it's probably mostly in the head. I
think the higher touchdown speeds invovlved and the resultant float
only prolong the agony.
Having said that, any pilot should be able to fly his airplane in any
reasonable configuration it might end up in and this should be taught
as a matter of course. I did some instruction in Cherokees(most of my
instruction was in Cubs) and found the flaps were confusing the issue
when the students were learning landings. I opted to do most of them
flapless and this porved quite productive. the problem was, none of
the other instructors were teaching this and it was off the page for
the school, so I kept it to a minimum.
Bertie

On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an
emergency.

The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer
Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to
have the right flap fall completely off. G

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
On 1 Jan, 17:14, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Dudley Henriques wrote:
No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another
procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no
flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a
no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as
required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over
the aspects of no flap landings with every student.
I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the
student must be completely familiar with before solo.
The issue with no flaps landings is not that the landing itself is an
emergency, but that the pilot should recognize that the flaps didn't extend
and adjust his plan accordingly. And understand the performance
implications.
Like many CFI's who came up during my period, (old people :-) I much
preferred to teach no flap landings to students as BOTH a possible
emergency AND an option that could be used by a good pilot who for a
viable and safe reason wanted to land long for a far end turnoff on an
exceptionally long runway for example.
Many of the airplanes we flew as trainers had no flaps; i.e. Cubs,
Colts, etc. You learned early on in these airplanes to fly the approach
properly and with no "devices" to help you control the landing speed.
These airplanes are still in use today and in many cases are priced low
enough that many students becoming aircraft owners for the first time
will end up purchasing an aircraft with no flaps. I personally know two
pilots who own a J3 and a Piper Colt; each have no flaps.

Flaps and their use are VERY aircraft specific. In some airplanes a POH
might define a no flap landing as an emergency. Others simply alter the
approach profile a bit. In the T38 Talon for example, (I use this as the
airplane is extremely high performance and landing cfg is critical for
the Talon) the procedure for a no flap landing is to add 15kts to the
normal landing speed...period! No big deal at all.

Landing a normal GA airplane with no flaps should not pose a good pilot
any problems at all, and training should reflect this.

The bottom line is that instructors should teach landings in a way that
defines every one of them as a unique experience dealing with a unique
and ever changing dynamic. No two landings that a pilot will make during
an entire career will ever be exactly the same. Each landing carries its
own individual fingerprint.
No flaps can be an emergency landing or it can simply be a pilot's
option. Either way, the pilot should be on top of it and have each
individual landing planned based on current conditions existing for any
given instant in time that pertain to THAT landing.


Hear hear.
I've often met pilots who use no flaps on landing in very gusty
conditions or stiff crosswinds. I've tried this and don't really see
the benifits. Like a lot of things it's probably mostly in the head. I
think the higher touchdown speeds invovlved and the resultant float
only prolong the agony.
Having said that, any pilot should be able to fly his airplane in any
reasonable configuration it might end up in and this should be taught
as a matter of course. I did some instruction in Cherokees(most of my
instruction was in Cubs) and found the flaps were confusing the issue
when the students were learning landings. I opted to do most of them
flapless and this porved quite productive. the problem was, none of
the other instructors were teaching this and it was off the page for
the school, so I kept it to a minimum.
Bertie

I'm short enough that even sitting on a seat chute, in the Mustang, I
lowered 20 degrees of flap on downwind just to see over the damn nose :-))


--
Dudley Henriques

B A R R Y wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an
emergency.

The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer
Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to
have the right flap fall completely off. G

Now THAT would be an attention getter for the average Sunday pilot in a
big hurry :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

In rec.aviation.student Dudley Henriques wrote:
Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

Exactly!

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

No more than every landing made in a glider is an emergency.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:41:58 -0500, "Barry" wrote:

My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

EMERGENCY- A distress or an urgency condition.

DISTRESS- A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger
and of requiring immediate assistance.

URGENCY- A condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring timely
but not immediate assistance; a potential distress condition.

So I would say that the inability to extend flaps would be considered an
emergency only if it puts you in serious or imminent danger, or causes you to
be concerned about safety.

That's all great... Now, where is the no flap landing listed in the
Private Pilot PTS? G

Most of us agree it's far from an emergency, but the PTS doesn't list
"Urgency" or "Abnormal" conditions.

The examiner did not scream "Emergency!", blow horns, cry, etc...

He just said "Why don't you make this one a no-flap landing... Tell
me what's different if you need to land without flaps." After the
oral exam on flaps, we didn't even land, as he then pointed out
non-existent debris on the runway. Right before the flap failure, he
had me slip to lose altitude.

As we climbed away from the runway, he checked the "Flap Failure" off
in the "Emergency Procedures" list in the PTS. That's why it's an
"Emergency" in this context.

We went over all of the "Emergencies" listed in the PTS that were
applicable to the airplane I was flying.

Even though most of us think it's not a big deal, if the PIC of a
specific aircraft feels his of her specific flap failure has every
right to declare, no?

FWIW, The guy I know who had the right flap break off his Beech Sport
declared to the tower at the field he was landing! Why? He didn't
really know what the damage was. All he knew is that when he deployed
the flaps @ 1000 AGL, there was a big bang and the plane flew funny.
While it flew fine once he pulled them back in, he really didn't know
the extent of the damage to the plane.