Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?

Charles "Ben" Ethridge

Ben,

As in everything in aviation, if you use good judgement at the right time you will be fine. Your inquiries into out landings is the first step. Many on the forum have provided excellent ideas and options. There are training opportunities every year to get better in our sport and safely challenge your aviation skill set. Next week we will the Region 5 South contest in Cordele Georgia. This is a learning evolution where we review your flight each night, provide short presentations on contest rules, strategy, and information to improve the specific skills you need to fly XC safely. At Seminole-Lake gliderport in Clermont Florida we love to have pilots improve their comfort in sailplanes. We do XC and racing training. Give me a call, we will be happy to help. I’ll also come to your club to do ground school if enough pilots are interested.

Sincerely,
Rich Owen

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 2:17:05 AM UTC-4, CindyB wrote:
2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?
Yes, TOO often.
Sometimes from poor field assessment skills, sometimes poor landing skills.
There is training available. Many places don't have enough customers willing to pay for XC training coupled with many glider CFIs not having XC skills in the US. The AirSailing Camp is one good suggestion. Grabbing a ride along with Hank Nixon, Sara Arnold, John Good, Doug Jacobs, Rich at Seminole, Jason at Estrella, Burt at Marfa. Me. We all love that level of teaching..
Seek training,

Thanks for the tips, Cindy. There appears to be some training available, but it is either incomplete or informal. For example, I checked out the AirSailing Camp website, but it appears to be all solo, not dual, and not specifically designed to teach landouts.

In airplanes, no student pilot is allowed to do crosscountries solo until they have proven that they can do crosscountries dual with an instructor in the airplane. As a former CFI this make sense to me for gliders as well, for pretty much the same reasons. Apparently Tom Knauff would agree.

He used to teach a 3 hour landout course in a motorglider (and maybe still does?). From his After Solo book, starting on page 121:

"We take the motorglider and fly a 150km triangle course the pilot has planned. During the flight, you will make about 10 simulated off-field landings as well as navigation skills....After the second turnpoint is reached, the student navigates along the final leg until it is obvious the home gliderport will be found. More off field landings are performed into more difficult areas."

"The typical glider pilot learns off field landings quite differently. Even if the pilot doesn't have an accident, there is no one to critique the performance and suggest different or better ways to handle each situation."

"Last year, I did 400 off field landings with students in a a motor glider. {Emphasis by Tom Knauff} With few exceptions, each one of those pilots would have crashed during one of their first attempts at a real landing. (Remember we begin with easy fields.)"

If there were such a course available in my area, I would be happy to pay for it. Confidence in my ability to do safe solo crosscountry would go up immensely. Without such, it just doesn't seem worth the risk of accident, at least not in this area of the country, which is the only area in which I've ever flown gliders.

Ben

"Last year, I did 400 off field landings with students in a a motor glider. {Emphasis by Tom Knauff} With few exceptions, each one of those pilots would have crashed during one of their first attempts at a real landing. (Remember we begin with easy fields.)"



Let's not lose sight of the fact that each one of those students likely had very limited prior experience in the 2-place motor glider being used and were likely doing one of their first motorglider landings of any type in that exercise. It should be obvious that one does not attempt an off field landing in a glider they are not fully competent to land at an airport. I don't see this "statistic" (if that is what it is) to be meaningful and it seems more designed to alarm.
ROY

Hi Ben,

Go see Rich. He's the real deal and SLG offers a good environment (not too far from you) in which to train. You'll have to adapt the things you learn to whatever your local flying environment happens to be.

best,
Evan Ludeman

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 8:41:51 AM UTC-4, Rich Owen wrote:
Charles "Ben" Ethridge

Ben,

As in everything in aviation, if you use good judgement at the right time you will be fine. Your inquiries into out landings is the first step. Many on the forum have provided excellent ideas and options. There are training opportunities every year to get better in our sport and safely challenge your aviation skill set. Next week we will the Region 5 South contest in Cordele Georgia. This is a learning evolution where we review your flight each night, provide short presentations on contest rules, strategy, and information to improve the specific skills you need to fly XC safely. At Seminole-Lake gliderport in Clermont Florida we love to have pilots improve their comfort in sailplanes. We do XC and racing training. Give me a call, we will be happy to help. I’ll also come to your club to do ground school if enough pilots are interested.

Sincerely,
Rich Owen

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 2:00:05 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
Hi all.

First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.

I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare.

The question has two parts:

1. Are off-airport landouts common?

I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports?

The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.

2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?

The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.

Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122):

"During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!"

But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?

Charles "Ben" Ethridge

I'll add my two-bits. It depends, where you fly, what you fly and how you fly. I have a few hours under 1700hr of glider time, mostly XC, and mostly in the 1990's and early 2000's. Ninety-five percent of my flights have been out of a western mountain site, Warner Springs, Tehachapi, Lone pine, Bishop, Minden, or Truckee. Not a lot of fields in those places, but I have managed to land just once in a field, 5 times on dry lakes and I can't count the amount of time I have landed at an airport other than where I had planned. Best when you can get an aero tow home. When I started to fly a Nimbus 4, 26.5 meters of wing, I made a conscience decision to use airports as alternates, although a couple of times I did get a pretty close look at a chosen field. I know at least one former US world team member and former National champ, current top tier competitor who flies 18 meter out of TX, just switch to 21 meter who also only uses airports as alternates. The guys flying the ridges in the east have much different conditions and I understand landing out in fields is just part of eastern ridge running. In the West we are on O2 flying over tiger country and someplaces like over the Great Basin, you can be 6K AGL and in sink and not within glide of a landing spot. If you are flying a 1-26 xc, you will be outlining in all sorts of places.

At 13:48 29 May 2019, Roy B. wrote:
"Last year, I did 400 off field landings with students in a a motor
glider.=
{Emphasis by Tom Knauff} With few exceptions, each one of those pilots
wou=
ld have crashed during one of their first attempts at a real landing.
(Reme=
mber we begin with easy fields.)"=20



Let's not lose sight of the fact that each one of those students likely
had=
very limited prior experience in the 2-place motor glider being used and
w=
ere likely doing one of their first motorglider landings of any type in
tha=
t exercise. It should be obvious that one does not attempt an off field
la=
nding in a glider they are not fully competent to land at an airport. I
do=
n't see this "statistic" (if that is what it is) to be meaningful and it
se=
ems more designed to alarm.
ROY


Simulated field landings in a motor glider are not ideal.
But they are a lot better than no advance practice.
I remember my first landout,my heart was in my mouth and my pulse going
like a jack hammer.When I came to a stop I only had 1/2 a mile left in
front.

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 7:30:04 AM UTC-7, Jonathon May wrote:
At 13:48 29 May 2019, Roy B. wrote:
"Last year, I did 400 off field landings with students in a a motor
glider.=
{Emphasis by Tom Knauff} With few exceptions, each one of those pilots
wou=
ld have crashed during one of their first attempts at a real landing.
(Reme=
mber we begin with easy fields.)"=20



Let's not lose sight of the fact that each one of those students likely
had=
very limited prior experience in the 2-place motor glider being used and
w=
ere likely doing one of their first motorglider landings of any type in
tha=
t exercise. It should be obvious that one does not attempt an off field
la=
nding in a glider they are not fully competent to land at an airport. I
do=
n't see this "statistic" (if that is what it is) to be meaningful and it
se=
ems more designed to alarm.
ROY


Simulated field landings in a motor glider are not ideal.
But they are a lot better than no advance practice.
I remember my first landout,my heart was in my mouth and my pulse going
like a jack hammer.When I came to a stop I only had 1/2 a mile left in
front.

My only early xc training was a couple of flights in a Grob 109. I thought it was invaluable Training!! We planned a triangle, flew it and made simulated landing on a bunch of landout spots, flying the approach to perhaps 20 ft AGL adding power and flying away. These powered flights taught me how know to think and plan safely as I started to fly my own XC flights. I have never had a high heart rate in an unplanned landing. Few years ago I did my first damage to a glider scraping the nose while landing on a somewhat dry lake, with lots of debris on roll out. Frankly I was too low when I arrived and too slow, turned final at 78 ft agl and 51 knots. Still have not had an insurance claim though, knock on wood.

On 5/29/2019 6:57 AM, Charles Ethridge wrote:
"Last year, I did 400 off field landings with students in a a motor glider. {Emphasis by Tom Knauff} With few exceptions, each one of those pilots would have crashed during one of their first attempts at a real landing. (Remember we begin with easy fields.)"

Really?Â* Four hundred actual off field landings?Â* Or low approaches with
the engine running?Â* There's a big difference (unless the engine quits
during the go-around).

--
Dan, 5J

As a former CFI-G......as well as later alomg SEL student.....best ANY flight instructor can do is.....
Train to think things out.
Practice in controlled situations.
Then.....(when student is at least sorta ready), drop the boom on them and see if they keep thinking. Goal is.....keep flying until everything stops. Hopefully you made decent decisions.
Stress (the whole, "drop the boom on them.....in a controlled situation......which NEVER covers all situations....") and see if they sorta keep thinking and adjusting.

Yes, I disagreed with a SEL CFI during simulated power loss. I picked a place, he gave me power back at about 200' AGL.
We discussed.
My comment, "how many times have you landed off an airport"?
I had many, had decent reasons for my field selection.


Go back to my earlier posts.......
Pick a place to land at home field EVERY time.....do it!
Try opposite patterns if traffic allows.
Ignore altimeter....basically useless in "Farmer Browns back forty" where ground level is unknown....what does it look like, what does it feel like (I unknowingly landed with full water in a ASW-20.....listed speeds to fly dry would have wrecked the ship....but it felt wrong....I flew faster until it felt right...) how to make better?

As stated, peeps trash ships at home......definition of XC....."beyond glide of airport"..... so 2 miles out but low.....you're XC.....

This is a sport that can be major fun......flying is unforgiving......gravity (or as I say, "no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks....") ALWAYS wins eventually....

Train, plan, think.......have fun.....

On Wed, 29 May 2019 08:51:26 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

Really?Â* Four hundred actual off field landings?Â* Or low approaches with
the engine running?Â* There's a big difference (unless the engine quits
during the go-around).

UK rules: no solo XC without a cross country endorsement on your bronze
badge, so the Bronze is the first prerequisite. This requires 50 solo
flights of which at least two must be soaring flights of 30 mins or
longer, two written papers + flying tests.

XC endorsement requires instructed flights covering navigation, field
selection and field landings plus a 1 hour and a two hour soaring flight.
In my club we do everything except the two soaring flights in a Scheibe
SF-25 TMG flown normally for navication and field selection exercises
and with enough power on to approximate a 30:1 glide for the landing
practise - the student picks the field, flys the circuit, base and finals
and the instructor takes over and climbs away at around 100 ft or so as
soon as its obvious the is well placed in the field and (obviously) takes
over somewhat earlier if the student has got it wrong. All three
exercises are repeated until both instructor and student are happy.

FWIW in my club new solo pilots are encouraged to start work on their
Bronze as soon as they've converted to an SZD Junior. We have two,
primarily for early solo flying. The Junior pilots are also encouraged to
work on their two Bronze duration flights plus the Silver height and
duration tasks as part of their pre-Bronze flying because all these can
be done while staying local to our field.

Like all my peers, I'd done the Bronze duration flights as well as Silver
height and duration before I got the Bronze XC Endorsement and then flew
Silver Distance in a Junior on the next day that the duty instructor
thought conditions were suitable. This all happened within two weeks of
me completing the field landing exercises, so they were reinforced nicely
because the task I was set was to fly to another gliding club 60km away,
which I'd never previously seen, and land there.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org