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Senate and House have Approved Third-Class Medical Reform



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 23rd 16, 05:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,872
Default Senate and House have Approved Third-Class Medical Reform

wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 10:34:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 5:01:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 12:46:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Um, the plaque test should pretty much do it for a read on
arterial calcification. An MRI wouldn't be a bad idea if one
has a family history of Intracranial Aneurysm Rupture, but
otherwise it's a waste of money. The former is worth paying
the deductible as it answers a lot of questions.

The average cost of a MRI in the US is $2,600. How often do you
recommend doing this?

If you can't afford medical insurance, you can't afford to fly.

Medical insurance will not pay for a MRI "just because"; there would
have to be some indication of an issue to justify insurance paying.

Mine does. And without referrals.


Aren't you lucky; very few do.


That isn't the point. The point is... if you're responsible and
cognizant of it's importance, then you'll do it for yourself and
everyone around you. Any doctor will refer a plaque score.


There is a word for people that take tests just because the test exists.

And the point here was hidden condtions that don't show up in any but
the most extensive of physicals and certainly not in a 3rd class physical.

No, my original point was that the efficacy of 3rd class medicals is
such that you cannot quantify how many airplane crashes they prevented
because data on non-pilots isn't tracked, and speculation as to what
may have happened is just that, speculation. So, MANY candidates have
failed their 3rd class medicals, and if that made us all safer cannot
be proven.


You mean other than the data for balloon, glider, and light sport pilots
which don't require a medical?


The number of people flying balloons, gliders, and light sport pilots
are in the minority, are susceptible to prosecution for hiding medical
problems, and yet... they die from lack of detecting medical issues.
The numbers are just much smaller, the missions are different, i.e...
floating and farting around as opposed to Class C traffic. The reporting
from this group too, is small to non-existent.


Nonsense.

There is nothing special about the physical requirments to fly in Class C
and the same investigative system investigates all aviation accidents
whether it is one guy in a hot air balloon or an airliner with hundreds
of people.

While the absolute number of flight hours for balloon, glider, and light
sport pilots are smaller than for private pilots, the percentage of
medically caused accidents is not statistically different.

My plaque test after deductible was about 35 bucks. As they said
there wasn't even a hint of any, I figure check again in about
10 years. Unlike most Americans I'm not overweight, don't smoke,
don't drink, exercise daily, and eat very healthy.

And a fair number of people who are not overweight, don't smoke, don't drink,
exercise daily, and eat very healthy drop dead every day from something
that did not show up in a routine physical.

Hardly. Unless you're counting old age, which is 100% fatal.


No, not in droves, but it does happen.


And your point is what? Since a tiny minority of people with no
obvious problems keel over dead, then 3rd class medicals have
no benefit?


**** happens.

Since the percentage of medically caused accidents are not statistically
different for those with a 3rd class medical and those without, the 3rd
class medical appears to serve no usefull purpose.

So what does that have to do with 3rd class physicals?

What it has to do with 3rd class physicals is CFR Part 67.311 which
states the following, and any individuals who failed their medicals
for these reasons, and then died of cardio problems as non-pilots,
never appeared on a statistical review of medical wash-outs.


But would appear in the statistical records for alloon, glider, and
light sport pilots if it actually were happening.


Apples, Oranges. Balloons, gliders, light sport...daytime, low elevation,
slow speed, farting and floating. And yet, they're crashing too due to
medical problems. Just no so many, not so published. Again, I'm not
necessarily advocating the status quo of 3rd class medicals. Just
saying it has served some good, and certain tests are a great idea.


No, there is no difference in the physical requirements for any type of
private civil aviation, except maybe acrobatics.

And again, the same investigation applies to ALL accidents and the percentage
of medically related accidents is not statistically different for those
with a 3rd class physical and those without it.

And there is STILL the requirement to get a phsical, just not all the
extra time, expense, and paperwork required for a 3rd class.

Cardiovascular standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are no established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:

(a) Myocardial infarction;

(b) Angina pectoris;

(c) Coronary heart disease that has required treatment or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant;

(d) Cardiac valve replacement;

(e) Permanent cardiac pacemaker implantation; or

(f) Heart replacement.

A clinical diagnosis can be an E.K.G. in any doctor's office.


All of which can be waivered with lots of tests and lots of time and money.


Waivered? So if you can beat the system, do?


Waivered means, after extensive tests, lots of time, lots of money, and
lots of paperwork, a bunch of doctors have decided you are fit to fly.

You have a strange definition of "beat the system".

And you keep seeming to forget you still have to get a physical and
self certify.


Like one fellow said:

"All of this is to say I think pilot incapacitation is a slightly
larger safety issue than it's made out to be, but not so large as to
justify the large bureaucracy and expense necessary to maintain the
Third Class, at least to current standards. Because of the way some
maybe most pilots self-certify, it's just not clear to me that the
Third Class exam makes much difference. You can hide stuff from your
AME, but you can't hide it from yourself. And you fly anyway. So what's
the point?"


And doing so is both stupid and illegal.

Also I highly doubt there are very many people that have a heart attack
and then go fly.

So, individual choice I guess. I think I've already mentioned that
I don't even fly when feeling a little "flat", or tired. Wouldn't
take the chance if sharpness isn't there. Operative word, responsibility.
Problem is, a lot of folks aren't good self regulators.


I highly doubt there are very many people that have bypass surgery or
a pace maker implanted and then go fly.

You can save a loved one or yourself by finding out if you're
afflicted with atherosclerosis and/or vascular plaque, as this
is what causes a sudden myocardial infarction which has caused
numerous plane crashes.

As there has never been any test for such things in a 3rd class physical,
it is irrelevant to the issue.

My understanding is that it is the responsibility of an AME to establish
that part 67.311 is carried out, often by a simple, in office EKG if
the candidate reports or presents any reason to be concerned.


And usually there has been no reason to be concerned until something
happens.


Don't know where you get that. A good doctor knows how to detect or
suspect circulatory issues. They come with age and have to be quantified.
These days most middle aged people have cholesterol problems, and heart
disease is the number one killer.


We've beat this one to death so I'm not going to rehash it yet again.


There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.

Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.

If what history?

Very few people go to mental health professionals unless there is a
big problem.

Then they've probably not been hospitalized or incarcerated,
and aren't a known risk. This doesn't mean unstable people don't
quietly walk among us. The problem in this category seems to be
a lack of identification. (most "terrorists" lately may actually
be psychotically disturbed folks wearing that label.) My GP knows
very little about mental health beyond a Wikipedia education.
Addressing this gap is something that could solve several problems.

So how many crazy GA pilots are crashing their airplanes per year?

Attention deficit and lack of concentration go with depression, and
cognitive rigidity. You don't have to be suicidal like that
commercial pilot that intentionally nose grounded a passenger jet.
I'm not saying it's statistically a big problem today. Substance
abuse is a mental issue, including flying intoxicated.

And the relevance to a 3rd class physical is?

The relevance to a 3rd class medical is that as per CFR Part 67.307,
it is the responsibility of the AME to assure the following, and any
individuals who failed their medicals for these reasons and didn't
crash a plane, have not been tallied. Therefore it isn't established
that the 3rd class medical is ineffective.


You mean other than the history of balloon, glider, and sport pilots which
have NO medical requirements?


No, the handful of pilots who float and fart around, don't
enter class C, and don't report squat to the FAA. Yeah, them too.
Apples, oranges, hidden data.


You seem to forget we are talking about the probability of medically
caused accidents and the same investigation happens for both people
without medicals and 3rd class holders.

And again, there is nothing special physcially about Class C airspace, or
Class B for that matter.

You do know light sport pilots can fly in both, don't you?

Mental standards for a third-class airman medical certificate a


Long, boring, and irrelevant to anything.


Sure. Drunks and psychos are fun to fly with.


A childish appeal to emotion.

Most crashes are pilot error. Most errors are mental lapses. Why?

Lots of reasons and well documented such as "Hey, guys, watch this",
get home-itis, lack of proper planning, etc.

So, then, mental.


As opposed to what, gastrointestinal?


Only if the "hey guys watch this" is "hey guys watch me crap my pants
and crash".

Then it would be gastrointestinal.


So how does one medically diagnose get home-itis?

--
Jim Pennino
Ads
  #22  
Old July 23rd 16, 11:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 58
Default Senate and House have Approved Third-Class Medical Reform

On Saturday, July 23, 2016 at 12:31:04 AM UTC-4, wrote:
wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 10:34:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 5:01:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 12:46:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Um, the plaque test should pretty much do it for a read on
arterial calcification. An MRI wouldn't be a bad idea if one
has a family history of Intracranial Aneurysm Rupture, but
otherwise it's a waste of money. The former is worth paying
the deductible as it answers a lot of questions.

The average cost of a MRI in the US is $2,600. How often do you
recommend doing this?

If you can't afford medical insurance, you can't afford to fly.

Medical insurance will not pay for a MRI "just because"; there would
have to be some indication of an issue to justify insurance paying.

Mine does. And without referrals.

Aren't you lucky; very few do.


That isn't the point. The point is... if you're responsible and
cognizant of it's importance, then you'll do it for yourself and
everyone around you. Any doctor will refer a plaque score.


There is a word for people that take tests just because the test exists.


Off topic. Aviators need a healthy cardiac report.

And the point here was hidden condtions that don't show up in any but
the most extensive of physicals and certainly not in a 3rd class physical.

No, my original point was that the efficacy of 3rd class medicals is
such that you cannot quantify how many airplane crashes they prevented
because data on non-pilots isn't tracked, and speculation as to what
may have happened is just that, speculation. So, MANY candidates have
failed their 3rd class medicals, and if that made us all safer cannot
be proven.

You mean other than the data for balloon, glider, and light sport pilots
which don't require a medical?


The number of people flying balloons, gliders, and light sport pilots
are in the minority, are susceptible to prosecution for hiding medical
problems, and yet... they die from lack of detecting medical issues.
The numbers are just much smaller, the missions are different, i.e...
floating and farting around as opposed to Class C traffic. The reporting
from this group too, is small to non-existent.


Nonsense.

There is nothing special about the physical requirments to fly in Class C
and the same investigative system investigates all aviation accidents
whether it is one guy in a hot air balloon or an airliner with hundreds
of people.

While the absolute number of flight hours for balloon, glider, and light
sport pilots are smaller than for private pilots, the percentage of
medically caused accidents is not statistically different.


Your entire argument here is mute, as it is predicated on the assumption
that people who fly balloons, light sport, and gliders prove that 3rd
class medicals are unnecessary. Captain Obvious says that we don't
know what percentage of that community WOULD HAVE PASSED their 3RD class
medical anyway. I'm telling you that this is a minority community, and
the folks in that community who can't pass a 3rd class medical, are a
minority of a minority, and the folks in that minority of a minority
who end up in an *FAA report*, are a minority, of a minority, of a
minority. Even with ALL THAT, you still have glider, ballonists, and
light sport pilots in FAA reports due to medical reasons.

My plaque test after deductible was about 35 bucks. As they said
there wasn't even a hint of any, I figure check again in about
10 years. Unlike most Americans I'm not overweight, don't smoke,
don't drink, exercise daily, and eat very healthy.

And a fair number of people who are not overweight, don't smoke, don't drink,
exercise daily, and eat very healthy drop dead every day from something
that did not show up in a routine physical.

Hardly. Unless you're counting old age, which is 100% fatal.

No, not in droves, but it does happen.


And your point is what? Since a tiny minority of people with no
obvious problems keel over dead, then 3rd class medicals have
no benefit?


**** happens.


Irrelevant.

Since the percentage of medically caused accidents are not statistically
different for those with a 3rd class medical and those without, the 3rd
class medical appears to serve no usefull purpose.


Again, fails on the logical fallacy of assumption, and false analogy.
You failed to consider the second group which would have passed the
3rd class medical.

So what does that have to do with 3rd class physicals?

What it has to do with 3rd class physicals is CFR Part 67.311 which
states the following, and any individuals who failed their medicals
for these reasons, and then died of cardio problems as non-pilots,
never appeared on a statistical review of medical wash-outs.

But would appear in the statistical records for alloon, glider, and
light sport pilots if it actually were happening.


Apples, Oranges. Balloons, gliders, light sport...daytime, low elevation,
slow speed, farting and floating. And yet, they're crashing too due to
medical problems. Just no so many, not so published. Again, I'm not
necessarily advocating the status quo of 3rd class medicals. Just
saying it has served some good, and certain tests are a great idea.


No, there is no difference in the physical requirements for any type of
private civil aviation, except maybe acrobatics.


There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE. The 3rd class medical has professional (albeit
often manipulatable) oversight by a doctor. The other group is the HONOR
SYSTEM. Big difference.

And again, the same investigation applies to ALL accidents and the percentage
of medically related accidents is not statistically different for those
with a 3rd class physical and those without it.


You can' plot statistics on that which goes unreported, like, when
your little balloon lands in Martha's swimming pool. Very different
than a Mooney missing the threshold.

And there is STILL the requirement to get a phsical, just not all the
extra time, expense, and paperwork required for a 3rd class.


No there isn't. Light Sport medicals, and Glider medicals aren't
required at all.

Cardiovascular standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are no established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:

(a) Myocardial infarction;

(b) Angina pectoris;

(c) Coronary heart disease that has required treatment or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant;

(d) Cardiac valve replacement;

(e) Permanent cardiac pacemaker implantation; or

(f) Heart replacement.

A clinical diagnosis can be an E.K.G. in any doctor's office.

All of which can be waivered with lots of tests and lots of time and money.


Waivered? So if you can beat the system, do?


Waivered means, after extensive tests, lots of time, lots of money, and
lots of paperwork, a bunch of doctors have decided you are fit to fly.


That is perfectly acceptable.

You have a strange definition of "beat the system".


Oh, I'm quite familiar with how it *actually* works, when the
buddy system gives a guy a break. And frankly, most the time it's
justified if proven as you say. And sometimes it's favoritism.


And you keep seeming to forget you still have to get a physical and
self certify.


Like one fellow said:

"All of this is to say I think pilot incapacitation is a slightly
larger safety issue than it's made out to be, but not so large as to
justify the large bureaucracy and expense necessary to maintain the
Third Class, at least to current standards. Because of the way some
maybe most pilots self-certify, it's just not clear to me that the
Third Class exam makes much difference. You can hide stuff from your
AME, but you can't hide it from yourself. And you fly anyway. So what's
the point?"


And doing so is both stupid and illegal.


Ok. So given human nature, as it is, then you advocate oversight.

Also I highly doubt there are very many people that have a heart attack
and then go fly.


No, they go fly, then they have the heart attack.

So, individual choice I guess. I think I've already mentioned that
I don't even fly when feeling a little "flat", or tired. Wouldn't
take the chance if sharpness isn't there. Operative word, responsibility.
Problem is, a lot of folks aren't good self regulators.


I highly doubt there are very many people that have bypass surgery or
a pace maker implanted and then go fly.


I agree.

You can save a loved one or yourself by finding out if you're
afflicted with atherosclerosis and/or vascular plaque, as this
is what causes a sudden myocardial infarction which has caused
numerous plane crashes.

As there has never been any test for such things in a 3rd class physical,
it is irrelevant to the issue.

My understanding is that it is the responsibility of an AME to establish
that part 67.311 is carried out, often by a simple, in office EKG if
the candidate reports or presents any reason to be concerned.

And usually there has been no reason to be concerned until something
happens.


Don't know where you get that. A good doctor knows how to detect or
suspect circulatory issues. They come with age and have to be quantified.
These days most middle aged people have cholesterol problems, and heart
disease is the number one killer.


We've beat this one to death so I'm not going to rehash it yet again.


Ok, fine. It isn't the only health issue that needs to be checked
by a doctor before you qualify for certification. It's just the
most important one. Up high on the list with it are Vertigo, Senility,
and Anti-Behavior tendencies.


There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.

Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.

If what history?

Very few people go to mental health professionals unless there is a
big problem.

Then they've probably not been hospitalized or incarcerated,
and aren't a known risk. This doesn't mean unstable people don't
quietly walk among us. The problem in this category seems to be
a lack of identification. (most "terrorists" lately may actually
be psychotically disturbed folks wearing that label.) My GP knows
very little about mental health beyond a Wikipedia education.
Addressing this gap is something that could solve several problems.

So how many crazy GA pilots are crashing their airplanes per year?

Attention deficit and lack of concentration go with depression, and
cognitive rigidity. You don't have to be suicidal like that
commercial pilot that intentionally nose grounded a passenger jet.
I'm not saying it's statistically a big problem today. Substance
abuse is a mental issue, including flying intoxicated.

And the relevance to a 3rd class physical is?

The relevance to a 3rd class medical is that as per CFR Part 67.307,
it is the responsibility of the AME to assure the following, and any
individuals who failed their medicals for these reasons and didn't
crash a plane, have not been tallied. Therefore it isn't established
that the 3rd class medical is ineffective.

You mean other than the history of balloon, glider, and sport pilots which
have NO medical requirements?


No, the handful of pilots who float and fart around, don't
enter class C, and don't report squat to the FAA. Yeah, them too.
Apples, oranges, hidden data.


You seem to forget we are talking about the probability of medically
caused accidents and the same investigation happens for both people
without medicals and 3rd class holders.


That's patently false. What about all the folks who can't pass a medical?
Take a thousand of them and send them off flying and look at *those*
statistics. Now look at the group who didn't take a medical. A high
percentage of them COULD pass. And those who couldn't and end up in
an FAA report... again, are a % of a % of a %.

And again, there is nothing special physcially about Class C airspace, or
Class B for that matter.


Well, that isn't fully correct either. There is much more interaction,
squawking, and memorization with these classes (I've landed Cessnas in
Jetports) and it's done at higher speeds. Way different than throwing
peanuts out of a balloon, or spiraling in circles over the bluff. You
can't be larking in Class B and C.

You do know light sport pilots can fly in both, don't you?


In limited capacity.

Mental standards for a third-class airman medical certificate a

Long, boring, and irrelevant to anything.


Sure. Drunks and psychos are fun to fly with.


A childish appeal to emotion.


Oh, well you snipped the entire FAR requirements for mental standards
and called it boring, so... I thought I'd keep it on your level.

Most crashes are pilot error. Most errors are mental lapses. Why?

Lots of reasons and well documented such as "Hey, guys, watch this",
get home-itis, lack of proper planning, etc.

So, then, mental.

As opposed to what, gastrointestinal?


Only if the "hey guys watch this" is "hey guys watch me crap my pants
and crash".

Then it would be gastrointestinal.


So how does one medically diagnose get home-itis?


Mental.

--
Jim Pennino


  #23  
Old July 23rd 16, 11:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 58
Default Senate and House have Approved Third-Class Medical Reform

On Saturday, July 23, 2016 at 6:32:38 AM UTC-4, wrote:
We've beat this one to death so I'm not going to rehash it yet again.


Ok, fine. It isn't the only health issue that needs to be checked
by a doctor before you qualify for certification. It's just the
most important one. Up high on the list with it are Vertigo, Senility,
and Anti-Behavior tendencies.


Typo. Should be, Anti-Social Behavior. As in, doesn't play well with others.
Or make transceivers a priority. We all know that guy.

---

  #24  
Old July 23rd 16, 07:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,872
Default Senate and House have Approved Third-Class Medical Reform

wrote:
On Saturday, July 23, 2016 at 12:31:04 AM UTC-4, wrote:
wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 10:34:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 5:01:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
wrote:
On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 12:46:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Um, the plaque test should pretty much do it for a read on
arterial calcification. An MRI wouldn't be a bad idea if one
has a family history of Intracranial Aneurysm Rupture, but
otherwise it's a waste of money. The former is worth paying
the deductible as it answers a lot of questions.

The average cost of a MRI in the US is $2,600. How often do you
recommend doing this?

If you can't afford medical insurance, you can't afford to fly.

Medical insurance will not pay for a MRI "just because"; there would
have to be some indication of an issue to justify insurance paying.

Mine does. And without referrals.

Aren't you lucky; very few do.

That isn't the point. The point is... if you're responsible and
cognizant of it's importance, then you'll do it for yourself and
everyone around you. Any doctor will refer a plaque score.


There is a word for people that take tests just because the test exists.


Off topic. Aviators need a healthy cardiac report.


Yeah, a standard report, not every test that exists.

And the point here was hidden condtions that don't show up in any but
the most extensive of physicals and certainly not in a 3rd class physical.

No, my original point was that the efficacy of 3rd class medicals is
such that you cannot quantify how many airplane crashes they prevented
because data on non-pilots isn't tracked, and speculation as to what
may have happened is just that, speculation. So, MANY candidates have
failed their 3rd class medicals, and if that made us all safer cannot
be proven.

You mean other than the data for balloon, glider, and light sport pilots
which don't require a medical?

The number of people flying balloons, gliders, and light sport pilots
are in the minority, are susceptible to prosecution for hiding medical
problems, and yet... they die from lack of detecting medical issues.
The numbers are just much smaller, the missions are different, i.e...
floating and farting around as opposed to Class C traffic. The reporting
from this group too, is small to non-existent.


Nonsense.

There is nothing special about the physical requirments to fly in Class C
and the same investigative system investigates all aviation accidents
whether it is one guy in a hot air balloon or an airliner with hundreds
of people.

While the absolute number of flight hours for balloon, glider, and light
sport pilots are smaller than for private pilots, the percentage of
medically caused accidents is not statistically different.


Your entire argument here is mute, as it is predicated on the assumption
that people who fly balloons, light sport, and gliders prove that 3rd
class medicals are unnecessary. Captain Obvious says that we don't
know what percentage of that community WOULD HAVE PASSED their 3RD class
medical anyway. I'm telling you that this is a minority community, and
the folks in that community who can't pass a 3rd class medical, are a
minority of a minority, and the folks in that minority of a minority
who end up in an *FAA report*, are a minority, of a minority, of a
minority. Even with ALL THAT, you still have glider, ballonists, and
light sport pilots in FAA reports due to medical reasons.


What happens to non-pilots is irrelevant to what happens to pilots.

The big push for 3rd class reform was higly motivated by the fact that
the RATE of medical incidents for light sport pilots, as well as glider
and balloon pilots, with no medical is not statistically different from
the RATE of medical incidents for pilots with a 3rd class medical.

Do you understand the difference between rate and absolute numbers?

Do you understand that the FAA investigates ALL aviation incidents
irrespective of medical, certification, of even if the pilot was
never certified?

My plaque test after deductible was about 35 bucks. As they said
there wasn't even a hint of any, I figure check again in about
10 years. Unlike most Americans I'm not overweight, don't smoke,
don't drink, exercise daily, and eat very healthy.

And a fair number of people who are not overweight, don't smoke, don't drink,
exercise daily, and eat very healthy drop dead every day from something
that did not show up in a routine physical.

Hardly. Unless you're counting old age, which is 100% fatal.

No, not in droves, but it does happen.

And your point is what? Since a tiny minority of people with no
obvious problems keel over dead, then 3rd class medicals have
no benefit?


**** happens.


Irrelevant.


What it means is 100% detection of 100% of potential medical problems
is a fantasy.

Since the percentage of medically caused accidents are not statistically
different for those with a 3rd class medical and those without, the 3rd
class medical appears to serve no usefull purpose.


Again, fails on the logical fallacy of assumption, and false analogy.
You failed to consider the second group which would have passed the
3rd class medical.


Whether of not some group who did not take a 3rd class medical could
or could not pass it is irrelevant to the accident data for pilots.

The accident data is the accident data and that data shows that for
PILOTS, having a 3rd class medical makes no difference in the accident
rate.

One could assume that with the training ALL pilots receive, most people
are smart enough to not fly when they are not well.

So what does that have to do with 3rd class physicals?

What it has to do with 3rd class physicals is CFR Part 67.311 which
states the following, and any individuals who failed their medicals
for these reasons, and then died of cardio problems as non-pilots,
never appeared on a statistical review of medical wash-outs.

But would appear in the statistical records for alloon, glider, and
light sport pilots if it actually were happening.

Apples, Oranges. Balloons, gliders, light sport...daytime, low elevation,
slow speed, farting and floating. And yet, they're crashing too due to
medical problems. Just no so many, not so published. Again, I'm not
necessarily advocating the status quo of 3rd class medicals. Just
saying it has served some good, and certain tests are a great idea.


No, there is no difference in the physical requirements for any type of
private civil aviation, except maybe acrobatics.


There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE. The 3rd class medical has professional (albeit
often manipulatable) oversight by a doctor. The other group is the HONOR
SYSTEM. Big difference.


Point totally missed.

The physical requirements on a pilot to operate an aircarft are not
different for any type of private civil aviation, except maybe acrobatics.

This has NOTHING to do with doctors.

And again, the same investigation applies to ALL accidents and the percentage
of medically related accidents is not statistically different for those
with a 3rd class physical and those without it.


You can' plot statistics on that which goes unreported, like, when
your little balloon lands in Martha's swimming pool. Very different
than a Mooney missing the threshold.


All ACCIDENTS are investigated.

Your remark of "little balloon" is childish nonsense.

And there is STILL the requirement to get a phsical, just not all the
extra time, expense, and paperwork required for a 3rd class.


No there isn't. Light Sport medicals, and Glider medicals aren't
required at all.


We are discussing, well, at least I am, 3rd class medical reform.

And after the 3rd class medical is eliminated, there is STILL the
requirement to get a phsical and document it.

Cardiovascular standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are no established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:

(a) Myocardial infarction;

(b) Angina pectoris;

(c) Coronary heart disease that has required treatment or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant;

(d) Cardiac valve replacement;

(e) Permanent cardiac pacemaker implantation; or

(f) Heart replacement.

A clinical diagnosis can be an E.K.G. in any doctor's office.

All of which can be waivered with lots of tests and lots of time and money.

Waivered? So if you can beat the system, do?


Waivered means, after extensive tests, lots of time, lots of money, and
lots of paperwork, a bunch of doctors have decided you are fit to fly.


That is perfectly acceptable.

You have a strange definition of "beat the system".


Oh, I'm quite familiar with how it *actually* works, when the
buddy system gives a guy a break. And frankly, most the time it's
justified if proven as you say. And sometimes it's favoritism.


Getting signed off on the most minor of discrepancies is a major effort,
getting waivered is a HUGE effort.

And since getting a waiver usually takes the agreement of several private
doctors as well as FAA doctors, I don't see where you are coming from
with your snarky remark about "the buddy system".

And you keep seeming to forget you still have to get a physical and
self certify.

Like one fellow said:

"All of this is to say I think pilot incapacitation is a slightly
larger safety issue than it's made out to be, but not so large as to
justify the large bureaucracy and expense necessary to maintain the
Third Class, at least to current standards. Because of the way some
maybe most pilots self-certify, it's just not clear to me that the
Third Class exam makes much difference. You can hide stuff from your
AME, but you can't hide it from yourself. And you fly anyway. So what's
the point?"


And doing so is both stupid and illegal.


Ok. So given human nature, as it is, then you advocate oversight.


Yeah, every pilot should have a physical before each flight and be
connected to an EKG machine during flight, all of which should be
streamed in real time to the FAA.

Since most people do have a survival instinct, education appears to be
sufficient as has been shown by the accident history for light sport
pilots/

Also I highly doubt there are very many people that have a heart attack
and then go fly.


No, they go fly, then they have the heart attack.


If they haven't had a history, there is no teason not to.

So, individual choice I guess. I think I've already mentioned that
I don't even fly when feeling a little "flat", or tired. Wouldn't
take the chance if sharpness isn't there. Operative word, responsibility.
Problem is, a lot of folks aren't good self regulators.


I highly doubt there are very many people that have bypass surgery or
a pace maker implanted and then go fly.


I agree.

You can save a loved one or yourself by finding out if you're
afflicted with atherosclerosis and/or vascular plaque, as this
is what causes a sudden myocardial infarction which has caused
numerous plane crashes.

As there has never been any test for such things in a 3rd class physical,
it is irrelevant to the issue.

My understanding is that it is the responsibility of an AME to establish
that part 67.311 is carried out, often by a simple, in office EKG if
the candidate reports or presents any reason to be concerned.

And usually there has been no reason to be concerned until something
happens.

Don't know where you get that. A good doctor knows how to detect or
suspect circulatory issues. They come with age and have to be quantified.
These days most middle aged people have cholesterol problems, and heart
disease is the number one killer.


We've beat this one to death so I'm not going to rehash it yet again.


Ok, fine. It isn't the only health issue that needs to be checked
by a doctor before you qualify for certification. It's just the
most important one. Up high on the list with it are Vertigo, Senility,
and Anti-Behavior tendencies.


There has never been any test for Vertigo, Senility, or Anti-Behavior
tendencies in the 3rd class medical. The only thing even close is the
inner ear exam and basic balance test.

Where do you get this stuff?


There never has been any test of mental stability for civilian pilots.

Well, not directly. But if their history of prior diagnosis by another
doctor gave indications or prognoses of such, then it may be an
insurmountable hurdle. And might should be.

If what history?

Very few people go to mental health professionals unless there is a
big problem.

Then they've probably not been hospitalized or incarcerated,
and aren't a known risk. This doesn't mean unstable people don't
quietly walk among us. The problem in this category seems to be
a lack of identification. (most "terrorists" lately may actually
be psychotically disturbed folks wearing that label.) My GP knows
very little about mental health beyond a Wikipedia education.
Addressing this gap is something that could solve several problems.

So how many crazy GA pilots are crashing their airplanes per year?

Attention deficit and lack of concentration go with depression, and
cognitive rigidity. You don't have to be suicidal like that
commercial pilot that intentionally nose grounded a passenger jet.
I'm not saying it's statistically a big problem today. Substance
abuse is a mental issue, including flying intoxicated.

And the relevance to a 3rd class physical is?

The relevance to a 3rd class medical is that as per CFR Part 67.307,
it is the responsibility of the AME to assure the following, and any
individuals who failed their medicals for these reasons and didn't
crash a plane, have not been tallied. Therefore it isn't established
that the 3rd class medical is ineffective.

You mean other than the history of balloon, glider, and sport pilots which
have NO medical requirements?

No, the handful of pilots who float and fart around, don't
enter class C, and don't report squat to the FAA. Yeah, them too.
Apples, oranges, hidden data.


You seem to forget we are talking about the probability of medically
caused accidents and the same investigation happens for both people
without medicals and 3rd class holders.


That's patently false. What about all the folks who can't pass a medical?


They never flew in the first place so they never had an aviation accident.

Take a thousand of them and send them off flying and look at *those*
statistics. Now look at the group who didn't take a medical. A high
percentage of them COULD pass. And those who couldn't and end up in
an FAA report... again, are a % of a % of a %.


Just another red herring.

And again, there is nothing special physcially about Class C airspace, or
Class B for that matter.


Well, that isn't fully correct either. There is much more interaction,
squawking, and memorization with these classes (I've landed Cessnas in
Jetports) and it's done at higher speeds. Way different than throwing
peanuts out of a balloon, or spiraling in circles over the bluff. You
can't be larking in Class B and C.


Utter nonsense and I'm beginng to doubt you are a pilot at all.

The physical requirements are no different.

The control forces don't magically change when you fly into controlled
airspace.

The approach speed for an airplane is the approach speed.

Squawk codes are seldom changed in flight.

You don't memorize anything, you jot it down on your kneepad.

Throwing peanuts out of a balloon is illegal.

Busy uncontrolled airports are much more intense than any Class C or B
airport as you never know when some yahoo is going to appear out of
nowhere without having bothered to announce his presense.

You do know light sport pilots can fly in both, don't you?


In limited capacity.


Nope, no different.

The ONLY diffenece is that the training for flying in Class B is part
of the private curriculum while for light sport it is additional training.

Mental standards for a third-class airman medical certificate a

Long, boring, and irrelevant to anything.

Sure. Drunks and psychos are fun to fly with.


A childish appeal to emotion.


Oh, well you snipped the entire FAR requirements for mental standards
and called it boring, so... I thought I'd keep it on your level.


Yes, posting in the entire FAR requirements for mental standards IS
boring; a link would have been much more appropriate.

Most crashes are pilot error. Most errors are mental lapses. Why?

Lots of reasons and well documented such as "Hey, guys, watch this",
get home-itis, lack of proper planning, etc.

So, then, mental.

As opposed to what, gastrointestinal?

Only if the "hey guys watch this" is "hey guys watch me crap my pants
and crash".

Then it would be gastrointestinal.


So how does one medically diagnose get home-itis?


Mental.


And the appropriate objective medical test is?

--
Jim Pennino
  #26  
Old July 24th 16, 12:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: 58
Default Senate and House have Approved Third-Class Medical Reform


S N I P

Ooops!

LOL! Just a well. We all know you can't pass your medical.



  #27  
Old July 24th 16, 03:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: 2,872
Default Senate and House have Approved Third-Class Medical Reform

wrote:

S N I P

Ooops!

LOL! Just a well. We all know you can't pass your medical.


I see; no rational response so you go to a childish ad hominem.


--
Jim Pennino
  #28  
Old July 25th 16, 11:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: 58
Default Senate and House have Approved Third-Class Medical Reform

On Monday, July 25, 2016 at 3:07:02 PM UTC-4, Larry Dighera wrote:

The legislation specifically lists three medical areas of concern: cardiac,
mental health and neurological conditions.


Equally important should be diabetes, so... endocrinological.
Hypoglycemia is ubiquitous, and commonly results in mass confusion
and or black-outs.

---
 




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