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ATC Vectors IFR Flight Into California Mountain



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 3rd 16, 08:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Larry Dighera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,780
Default ATC Vectors IFR Flight Into California Mountain



The Air Traffic Controller issued the flight a heading of 030 (toward the
mountains), evident in this video
http://www.cbs8.com/story/32010167/air-traffic-controllers-desperately-tired-to-save-san-diego-pilot-before-crash.

But that vector appears to have been omitted from the NTSB report.

At this point, it looks like ATC made an error to me.

--------------------------
You can see where the 030 sent the flight on maps on this page:
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/0...san-diego.html

SAN DIEGO (CBS 8) - Newly released recordings reveal that Dr. Thomas Bruff, the
pilot killed in a small plane crash in the Los Angeles National Forest Sunday,
lost contact with air traffic controllers moments before the crash.

The Cessna R182 Skylane RG was flying from Montgomery Field in San Diego to
Santa Monica when it crashed into Brown Mountain. The last radar contact was
around 8:30 a.m.

The audio recordings reveal the urgency in air traffic controllers' voices as
they tried to communicate with Dr. Bruff because he was flying too low. Their
efforts to get him to a higher elevation were met with silence.

According to the audio recordings, Dr. Bruff was in constant contact with air
traffic controllers as he made his way from Montgomery Field in San Diego to
Santa Monica.

As he flew over Los Angeles, the 57-year-old pilot went silent.

Air traffic controllers repeatedly tried to reach him to warn him about his low
altitude. All contact was lost with Dr. Bruff about six miles North of the Rose
Bowl.

------------------
Video and ATC audio he
http://www.cbs8.com/story/32010167/a...t-before-crash

----------------------
http://ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviati...o=2&pgsize=200
NTSB Identification: WPR16FA111
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, May 15, 2016 in Altadena, CA
Aircraft: CESSNA R182, registration: N133BW
Injuries: 1 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any
errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been
completed. NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation
or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and
used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident
report.

On May 15, 2016, about 0829 Pacific daylight time, a Cessna R182, N133BW, was
destroyed when it impacted terrain during cruise flight near Altadena,
California. The airplane was registered to San Diego Skylane LLC., and operated
by the pilot under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part
91. The private pilot, sole occupant of the airplane, was fatally injured.
Instrument meteorological conditions prevailed and an instrument flight rules
(IFR) flight plan was filed for the personal flight. The cross-country flight
originated from Montgomery Field, San Diego, California, at 0737, with an
intended destination of the Santa Monica Airport (SMO), Santa Monica,
California.

Preliminary information provided by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)
indicated that the pilot was being vectored for an instrument approach to SMO.
The pilot established radio communication with the controller and subsequently
acknowledged obtaining weather information at the destination airport. About 2
minutes, 26 seconds later, the controller issued the pilot a heading change to
290 degrees and a descent clearance to 3,000 feet for vectors to final
approach. However, the controller received no response from the pilot despite
multiple attempts over the course of about 2 minutes. The pilot then
transmitted that he was on a 030 degree heading. The controller continued to
issue vectors away from rising terrain and made several attempts to communicate
with the pilot; however, no further radio communication from the pilot were
heard. Radar contact with the airplane was subsequently lost and an alert
notice (ALNOT) was issued by the FAA. The wreckage was located later that
evening by a Los Angeles County Sheriff Office air unit. The wreckage was
located within mountainous terrain near Brown Mountain, about 2 miles north,
northwest of Altadena. Law enforcement personnel and initial responders
reported that the airplane was mostly consumed by a post impact fire. Recovery
of the wreckage is currently pending.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
http://ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviati...e-41e5c707734f
Pilot name: Thomas Bruff

Airman: THOMAS CHRISTOPHER BRUFF
Personal Information
THOMAS CHRISTOPHER BRUFF

XXXX WARING RD STE 7
SAN DIEGO CA 92120-2700
County: SAN DIEGO
Country: USA
Medical
Medical Class: Third, Medical Date: 6/2015
MUST WEAR CORRECTIVE LENSES.
Certificates
PRIVATE PILOT
Date of Issue: 6/16/2010
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT Print
Ratings:
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE

Limits:
ENGLISH PROFICIENT.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
http://fox5sandiego.com/2016/05/15/s...near-pasadena/

One dead after plane from San Diego crashes near Pasadena
POSTED 9:54 PM, MAY 15, 2016, BY FOX 5 DIGITAL TEAM AND JASON SLOSS, UPDATED AT
01:15AM, MAY 16, 2016

SAN DIEGO - One person died after a small airplane that departed from a San
Diego airport crashed in the mountains north of Pasadena Sunday, authorities
said.

The white Cessna 182 aircraft with blue stripes was spotted before 9 a.m. near
Mount Wilson in the Angeles National Forest, according to a Los Angeles County
Fire Department dispatcher. The wreckage was near Mount Wilson Road at the
Angeles Crest Highway, state Route 2.

A heavy deck of clouds limited visibility to 200 feet, the dispatcher said.

"They (search and rescue teams) can see it, but they're unable to tell if there
are any passengers," she said. "They're having an access problem."

The FAA reported the pilot had indicated a flight from San Diego to Santa
Monica, west of Los Angeles. The crash site was not on a direct route, as Mount
Wilson is about 90 miles northwest of San Diego and 35 miles northeast of Santa
Monica.

Radar data from Flightaware.com showed that the plane had departed from
Montgomery Field in San Diego at 7:37 a.m. Sunday, and was apparently in an
approach pattern to Santa Monica Airport when it flew in a straight line to the
northeast. The radar path ended near Mount Wilson.

FAA spokesman Allen Kenitzer said the plane had been en route from Montgomery
Field to Santa Monica. It lost contact with ground controllers when it was 17
miles east of Van Nuys Airport, but no time of the contact loss was released.

The Cessna's tail number was N133BW, and FAA records indicate it was owned by a
San Diego company.

The plane was among a fleet belonging to the Plus One Flyers club at Montgomery
Field.

“You join the club as a pilot or as a student under the supervision of a flight
instructor. You pay your dues and if you’re checked out in a particular
airplane, you can fly it. You just get on the schedule and go fly it," said
local pilot Bill Winsor.

Shane Terpstra, a safety officer with the club, said the planes are regularly
checked out by mechanics.

“Very nice airplane, for the age. It’s very well-maintained. I’ve flown it many
times myself. A lot of the more experienced pilots choose to fly this -- it's a
little faster," said Terpstra.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ads
  #2  
Old June 3rd 16, 09:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Don Poitras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default ATC Vectors IFR Flight Into California Mountain

Nonsense. They vectored him for an instrument approach into Santa
Monica when he was just passed LAX. He never responded to later
instructions and flew another 15 minutes at 150 knots straight
into the hills to the north east. If ATC hadn't given him that
heading, he wouldn't have been able to fly the approach. Here's
a similar flight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...122Z/KMYF/KSMO


Larry Dighera wrote:


The Air Traffic Controller issued the flight a heading of 030 (toward the
mountains), evident in this video
http://www.cbs8.com/story/32010167/air-traffic-controllers-desperately-tired-to-save-san-diego-pilot-before-crash.


But that vector appears to have been omitted from the NTSB report.


At this point, it looks like ATC made an error to me.


--------------------------
You can see where the 030 sent the flight on maps on this page:
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/0...san-diego.html


--
Don Poitras
  #3  
Old June 4th 16, 02:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Larry Dighera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,780
Default ATC Vectors IFR Flight Into California Mountain


Hello Don,

Thank you for your response to my post.

I see what you are saying. The pilot must maintain situational awareness at
all times. However, there are a few troubling things about ATC's instructions
and the preliminary NTSB report.

1. Presumably, before arriving abeam of KLAX, SoCal TRACON instructed the
pilot to fly heading 210 (SW). The pilot then requested a heading of 310 (NW)
instead, according to the ATC audio recording in the video at 00:36 minutes. A
heading of 310 was about direct KSMO. But, the NTSB report states: "the
controller issued the pilot a heading change to 290 degrees and a descent
clearance to 3,000 feet for vectors to final approach." Clearly ATC and the
pilot had different expectations, as the altitude for entry at the DARTS IAF is
4,500' https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1606/pdf/05023VGA.PDF, but the
altitude for BEVEY INT is 2,600'.

2. Then LA CENTER turned the flight to a heading of 030 ostensibly to
intercept the IAF DARTS, but the approach plate indicates that the altitude at
the IAF is to be 4,500', but ATC had previously assigned the flight to 3,000'.
The NTSB report fails to mention the 3,000' altitude assignment that is in the
video
http://www.cbs8.com/story/32010167/air-traffic-controllers-desperately-tired-to-save-san-diego-pilot-before-crash
at 00:55 minutes. There's a flight track log he
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N133BW/history/20160515/1424Z/KMYF/KSMO/tracklog.
There is no indication that the pilot requested nor ATC reassigned the flight a
higher altitude.

3. Then LA CENTER issued an Low Altitude Alert and (01:10 in the video), and
"turn left immediately try to maintain 6,000" (at 02:13 in the video), but
apparently radio communications had been lost before that occurred.

I'm guessing, but from the 210 heading and 3,000' SoCal altitude assignment
instructions, ATC was aiming for a BEVEY INT intercept of the final approach
course, but the pilot intended to fly the full approach from DARTS. The
approach plate indicates that a BEVEY INT entry is for radar vectors. Baring a
medical or mechanical/electrical issue, it appears that the PIC failed to
maintain situational awareness.

Tragic.

Larry


FLIGHT TRACK LOG:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N133BW/history/20160515/1424Z/KMYF/KSMO/tracklog
Time (EDT) Latitude Longitude Course Direction KTS MPH
feet Rate Reporting Facility
Sun 10:37:00 AM Departure (KMYF) @ Sunday 07:37:00 AM PDT Los
Angeles Center
Sun 10:37:20 AM 32.8167 -117.1667 272° West 101 116 1,100
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:38:26 AM 32.8333 -117.2000 301° West 112 129 2,200
796 Climbing Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:39:13 AM 32.8361 -117.2214 279° West 105 121 2,600
606 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:40:15 AM 32.8639 -117.2439 325° Northwest 120 138
3,300 683 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:41:16 AM 32.8961 -117.2578 340° North 122 140 4,000
738 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:42:17 AM 32.9342 -117.2753 339° North 123 142 4,800
732 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:43:19 AM 32.9628 -117.2881 339° North 119 137 5,500
554 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:44:27 AM 33.0000 -117.3000 345° North 103 119 6,000
246 Climbing Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:45:21 AM 33.0167 -117.3167 320° Northwest 126 145
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:46:27 AM 33.0667 -117.3333 345° North 131 151 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:47:27 AM 33.1000 -117.3500 337° Northwest 130 150
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:49:27 AM 33.1569 -117.3789 337° Northwest 131 151
6,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:50:29 AM 33.1969 -117.3972 339° North 131 151 6,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:51:30 AM 33.2311 -117.4139 338° Northwest 131 151
6,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:52:33 AM 33.2667 -117.4333 336° Northwest 134 154
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:54:33 AM 33.3167 -117.5000 312° West 133 153 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:55:33 AM 33.3333 -117.5333 301° West 133 153 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:57:39 AM 33.3911 -117.5944 318° Northwest 132 152
6,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:58:41 AM 33.4231 -117.6317 315° West 132 152 6,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:59:28 AM 33.4500 -117.6500 331° Northwest 135 155
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:00:40 AM 33.4833 -117.6833 320° Northwest 136 157
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:01:28 AM 33.5000 -117.7167 301° West 136 157 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:02:28 AM 33.5333 -117.7500 320° Northwest 137 158
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:03:34 AM 33.5500 -117.7833 301° West 138 159 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:04:40 AM 33.5833 -117.8167 320° Northwest 137 158
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:05:40 AM 33.6167 -117.8500 321° Northwest 136 157
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:06:29 AM 33.6333 -117.8833 301° West 135 155 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:07:40 AM 33.6667 -117.9167 320° Northwest 138 159
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:08:40 AM 33.7000 -117.9500 320° Northwest 137 158
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:09:35 AM 33.7000 -117.9833 270° West 136 157 6,000
-261 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:10:35 AM 33.7333 -118.0333 309° West 151 174 5,500
-500 Descending Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:11:35 AM 33.7500 -118.0667 301° West 154 177 5,000
-550 Descending Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:12:35 AM 33.7667 -118.1167 292° West 153 176 4,400
-500 Descending Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:13:35 AM 33.7833 -118.1667 292° West 157 181 4,000
-267 Descending Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:14:05 AM 33.7969 -118.1886 307° West 153 176 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:15:07 AM 33.8158 -118.2303 299° West 148 170 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:16:09 AM 33.8350 -118.2725 299° West 147 169 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:17:11 AM 33.8622 -118.3069 313° West 156 180 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:18:12 AM 33.8981 -118.3442 319° Northwest 147 169
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:19:14 AM 33.9303 -118.3736 323° Northwest 146 168
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:20:16 AM 33.9617 -118.4025 323° Northwest 145 167
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:21:18 AM 33.9992 -118.3850 21° North 150 173 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:22:29 AM 34.0333 -118.3333 51° Northeast 146 168
4,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:23:30 AM 34.0667 -118.3167 22° Northeast 145 167
4,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:24:29 AM 34.1000 -118.2833 40° Northeast 145 167
4,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:26:28 AM 34.1586 -118.2178 43° Northeast 148 170
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:27:29 AM 34.1897 -118.1858 41° Northeast 148 170
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:28:31 AM 34.2214 -118.1539 40° Northeast 148 170
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:29:32 AM 34.2517 -118.1225 41° Northeast 148 170
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:37:00 AM Arrival (KSMO) @ Sunday 08:37:00 AM PDT Revised



https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1606/pdf/05023VGA.PDF

On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 20:19:49 +0000 (UTC), (Don Poitras) wrote:

Nonsense. They vectored him for an instrument approach into Santa
Monica when he was just passed LAX. He never responded to later
instructions and flew another 15 minutes at 150 knots straight
into the hills to the north east. If ATC hadn't given him that
heading, he wouldn't have been able to fly the approach. Here's
a similar flight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...122Z/KMYF/KSMO


Larry Dighera wrote:


The Air Traffic Controller issued the flight a heading of 030 (toward the
mountains), evident in this video
http://www.cbs8.com/story/32010167/air-traffic-controllers-desperately-tired-to-save-san-diego-pilot-before-crash.


But that vector appears to have been omitted from the NTSB report.


At this point, it looks like ATC made an error to me.


--------------------------
You can see where the 030 sent the flight on maps on this page:
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/0...san-diego.html

  #4  
Old June 4th 16, 03:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Don Poitras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default ATC Vectors IFR Flight Into California Mountain

It's not just "situational awareness", it was failure to follow bog-standard
instructions. They weren't sending him to DARTS, the were just sending him
far enough out so that they could turn him to intercept the final approach
course. 3000 feet is plenty high enough in that area as long as you turn
back when you're told to. I listened to the recording on LiveATC and the
310/210 thing was just a garbled transmission from ATC that they corrected
when the pilot read back the wrong heading. The 290 heading was given later
to turn him back to intercept the approach course. That's the exact instruction
one would expect to get. Again, he's getting vectors to final, there was no
implication that he was going to fly the full approach and it's pretty unusual
to be asked to do so in LA. You're going to get vectors. Although LiveATC didn't
capture the airplane transmissions after the switch to SoCal approach, it's
pretty clear that the pilot stopped responding after the instruction to turn
left to 290. They tried many times to reach him. We'll probably never know
what happened, but it was either a medical problem or something worse. The
one thing we _do_ know is that SoCal approach did nothing wrong and there was
nothing out of the ordinary in their instructions. They did all they could to
try to save him, including asking another aircraft in the area to listen for
an ELT broadcast to locate him for possible rescue.


Larry Dighera wrote:

Hello Don,


Thank you for your response to my post.


I see what you are saying. The pilot must maintain situational awareness at
all times. However, there are a few troubling things about ATC's instructions
and the preliminary NTSB report.


1. Presumably, before arriving abeam of KLAX, SoCal TRACON instructed the
pilot to fly heading 210 (SW). The pilot then requested a heading of 310 (NW)
instead, according to the ATC audio recording in the video at 00:36 minutes. A
heading of 310 was about direct KSMO. But, the NTSB report states: "the
controller issued the pilot a heading change to 290 degrees and a descent
clearance to 3,000 feet for vectors to final approach." Clearly ATC and the
pilot had different expectations, as the altitude for entry at the DARTS IAF is
4,500' https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1606/pdf/05023VGA.PDF, but the
altitude for BEVEY INT is 2,600'.


2. Then LA CENTER turned the flight to a heading of 030 ostensibly to
intercept the IAF DARTS, but the approach plate indicates that the altitude at
the IAF is to be 4,500', but ATC had previously assigned the flight to 3,000'.
The NTSB report fails to mention the 3,000' altitude assignment that is in the
video
http://www.cbs8.com/story/32010167/air-traffic-controllers-desperately-tired-to-save-san-diego-pilot-before-crash
at 00:55 minutes. There's a flight track log he
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N133BW/history/20160515/1424Z/KMYF/KSMO/tracklog.
There is no indication that the pilot requested nor ATC reassigned the flight a
higher altitude.


3. Then LA CENTER issued an Low Altitude Alert and (01:10 in the video), and
"turn left immediately try to maintain 6,000" (at 02:13 in the video), but
apparently radio communications had been lost before that occurred.


I'm guessing, but from the 210 heading and 3,000' SoCal altitude assignment
instructions, ATC was aiming for a BEVEY INT intercept of the final approach
course, but the pilot intended to fly the full approach from DARTS. The
approach plate indicates that a BEVEY INT entry is for radar vectors. Baring a
medical or mechanical/electrical issue, it appears that the PIC failed to
maintain situational awareness.


Tragic.


Larry



FLIGHT TRACK LOG:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N133BW/history/20160515/1424Z/KMYF/KSMO/tracklog
Time (EDT) Latitude Longitude Course Direction KTS MPH
feet Rate Reporting Facility
Sun 10:37:00 AM Departure (KMYF) @ Sunday 07:37:00 AM PDT Los
Angeles Center
Sun 10:37:20 AM 32.8167 -117.1667 272? West 101 116 1,100
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:38:26 AM 32.8333 -117.2000 301? West 112 129 2,200
796 Climbing Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:39:13 AM 32.8361 -117.2214 279? West 105 121 2,600
606 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:40:15 AM 32.8639 -117.2439 325? Northwest 120 138
3,300 683 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:41:16 AM 32.8961 -117.2578 340? North 122 140 4,000
738 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:42:17 AM 32.9342 -117.2753 339? North 123 142 4,800
732 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:43:19 AM 32.9628 -117.2881 339? North 119 137 5,500
554 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:44:27 AM 33.0000 -117.3000 345? North 103 119 6,000
246 Climbing Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:45:21 AM 33.0167 -117.3167 320? Northwest 126 145
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:46:27 AM 33.0667 -117.3333 345? North 131 151 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:47:27 AM 33.1000 -117.3500 337? Northwest 130 150
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:49:27 AM 33.1569 -117.3789 337? Northwest 131 151
6,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:50:29 AM 33.1969 -117.3972 339? North 131 151 6,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:51:30 AM 33.2311 -117.4139 338? Northwest 131 151
6,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:52:33 AM 33.2667 -117.4333 336? Northwest 134 154
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:54:33 AM 33.3167 -117.5000 312? West 133 153 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:55:33 AM 33.3333 -117.5333 301? West 133 153 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:57:39 AM 33.3911 -117.5944 318? Northwest 132 152
6,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:58:41 AM 33.4231 -117.6317 315? West 132 152 6,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:59:28 AM 33.4500 -117.6500 331? Northwest 135 155
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:00:40 AM 33.4833 -117.6833 320? Northwest 136 157
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:01:28 AM 33.5000 -117.7167 301? West 136 157 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:02:28 AM 33.5333 -117.7500 320? Northwest 137 158
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:03:34 AM 33.5500 -117.7833 301? West 138 159 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:04:40 AM 33.5833 -117.8167 320? Northwest 137 158
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:05:40 AM 33.6167 -117.8500 321? Northwest 136 157
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:06:29 AM 33.6333 -117.8833 301? West 135 155 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:07:40 AM 33.6667 -117.9167 320? Northwest 138 159
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:08:40 AM 33.7000 -117.9500 320? Northwest 137 158
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:09:35 AM 33.7000 -117.9833 270? West 136 157 6,000
-261 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:10:35 AM 33.7333 -118.0333 309? West 151 174 5,500
-500 Descending Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:11:35 AM 33.7500 -118.0667 301? West 154 177 5,000
-550 Descending Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:12:35 AM 33.7667 -118.1167 292? West 153 176 4,400
-500 Descending Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:13:35 AM 33.7833 -118.1667 292? West 157 181 4,000
-267 Descending Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:14:05 AM 33.7969 -118.1886 307? West 153 176 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:15:07 AM 33.8158 -118.2303 299? West 148 170 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:16:09 AM 33.8350 -118.2725 299? West 147 169 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:17:11 AM 33.8622 -118.3069 313? West 156 180 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:18:12 AM 33.8981 -118.3442 319? Northwest 147 169
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:19:14 AM 33.9303 -118.3736 323? Northwest 146 168
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:20:16 AM 33.9617 -118.4025 323? Northwest 145 167
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:21:18 AM 33.9992 -118.3850 21? North 150 173 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:22:29 AM 34.0333 -118.3333 51? Northeast 146 168
4,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:23:30 AM 34.0667 -118.3167 22? Northeast 145 167
4,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:24:29 AM 34.1000 -118.2833 40? Northeast 145 167
4,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:26:28 AM 34.1586 -118.2178 43? Northeast 148 170
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:27:29 AM 34.1897 -118.1858 41? Northeast 148 170
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:28:31 AM 34.2214 -118.1539 40? Northeast 148 170
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:29:32 AM 34.2517 -118.1225 41? Northeast 148 170
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:37:00 AM Arrival (KSMO) @ Sunday 08:37:00 AM PDT Revised




https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1606/pdf/05023VGA.PDF


On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 20:19:49 +0000 (UTC), (Don Poitras) wrote:


Nonsense. They vectored him for an instrument approach into Santa
Monica when he was just passed LAX. He never responded to later
instructions and flew another 15 minutes at 150 knots straight
into the hills to the north east. If ATC hadn't given him that
heading, he wouldn't have been able to fly the approach. Here's
a similar flight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...122Z/KMYF/KSMO


Larry Dighera wrote:


The Air Traffic Controller issued the flight a heading of 030 (toward the
mountains), evident in this video
http://www.cbs8.com/story/32010167/air-traffic-controllers-desperately-tired-to-save-san-diego-pilot-before-crash.


But that vector appears to have been omitted from the NTSB report.


At this point, it looks like ATC made an error to me.


--------------------------
You can see where the 030 sent the flight on maps on this page:
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/0...san-diego.html


--
Don Poitras
  #5  
Old June 4th 16, 03:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Larry Dighera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,780
Default ATC Vectors IFR Flight Into California Mountain


Which particular "bog-standard" ATC instructions are you referring to?

The pilot seems to have complied with all the instructions he acknowledged
receiving that I'm aware of prior to the handoff to SoCal. At that point it
appears that he lost radio contact with ATC and continued on the last vector he
had received. From the LiveATC recording, SoCal's 290 heading assignment
doesn't appear to have been received by the pilot.

N133BW is not on the LiveATC recording after the ATC handoff to SoCal at 01:05
into the recording he
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13234.0;attach=888 3.
That could be a result of many things.

Your assertion that there were transmissions from the aircraft after the
handoff to SoCal that were not captured on the LiveATC recording seems
unfounded. Do you have another source for those transmissions from the
aircraft that you believe are missing on the LiveATC recording?

I agree that the information available to date does not appear to imply a
violation by SoCal controllers.


Here's one ATC controller's comment:

Very familiar with this crash. Pilot went NORDO. Stayed on ATC assigned
vector to his death. Who knows why the pilot stopped listening? Radio
failure? Pilot did not fly his aircraft according to NORDO procedures. He
should have turned onto Final Approach on his own and landed at the
airport. Pilot knew there are high MVA's to the northeast. I think pilot
had the plane on autopilot. Maybe pilot had a heart attack or stroke?
That's why he stopped responding.

We vector aircraft towards terrain everyday. It works great when the pilot
listens and follows instructions.




On Sat, 4 Jun 2016 02:23:47 +0000 (UTC), (Don Poitras) wrote:

It's not just "situational awareness", it was failure to follow bog-standard
instructions. They weren't sending him to DARTS, the were just sending him
far enough out so that they could turn him to intercept the final approach
course. 3000 feet is plenty high enough in that area as long as you turn
back when you're told to. I listened to the recording on LiveATC and the
310/210 thing was just a garbled transmission from ATC that they corrected
when the pilot read back the wrong heading. The 290 heading was given later
to turn him back to intercept the approach course. That's the exact instruction
one would expect to get. Again, he's getting vectors to final, there was no
implication that he was going to fly the full approach and it's pretty unusual
to be asked to do so in LA. You're going to get vectors. Although LiveATC didn't
capture the airplane transmissions after the switch to SoCal approach, it's
pretty clear that the pilot stopped responding after the instruction to turn
left to 290. They tried many times to reach him. We'll probably never know
what happened, but it was either a medical problem or something worse. The
one thing we _do_ know is that SoCal approach did nothing wrong and there was
nothing out of the ordinary in their instructions. They did all they could to
try to save him, including asking another aircraft in the area to listen for
an ELT broadcast to locate him for possible rescue.


Larry Dighera wrote:

Hello Don,


Thank you for your response to my post.


I see what you are saying. The pilot must maintain situational awareness at
all times. However, there are a few troubling things about ATC's instructions
and the preliminary NTSB report.


1. Presumably, before arriving abeam of KLAX, SoCal TRACON instructed the
pilot to fly heading 210 (SW). The pilot then requested a heading of 310 (NW)
instead, according to the ATC audio recording in the video at 00:36 minutes. A
heading of 310 was about direct KSMO. But, the NTSB report states: "the
controller issued the pilot a heading change to 290 degrees and a descent
clearance to 3,000 feet for vectors to final approach." Clearly ATC and the
pilot had different expectations, as the altitude for entry at the DARTS IAF is
4,500' https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1606/pdf/05023VGA.PDF, but the
altitude for BEVEY INT is 2,600'.


2. Then LA CENTER turned the flight to a heading of 030 ostensibly to
intercept the IAF DARTS, but the approach plate indicates that the altitude at
the IAF is to be 4,500', but ATC had previously assigned the flight to 3,000'.
The NTSB report fails to mention the 3,000' altitude assignment that is in the
video
http://www.cbs8.com/story/32010167/air-traffic-controllers-desperately-tired-to-save-san-diego-pilot-before-crash
at 00:55 minutes. There's a flight track log he
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N133BW/history/20160515/1424Z/KMYF/KSMO/tracklog.
There is no indication that the pilot requested nor ATC reassigned the flight a
higher altitude.


3. Then LA CENTER issued an Low Altitude Alert and (01:10 in the video), and
"turn left immediately try to maintain 6,000" (at 02:13 in the video), but
apparently radio communications had been lost before that occurred.


I'm guessing, but from the 210 heading and 3,000' SoCal altitude assignment
instructions, ATC was aiming for a BEVEY INT intercept of the final approach
course, but the pilot intended to fly the full approach from DARTS. The
approach plate indicates that a BEVEY INT entry is for radar vectors. Baring a
medical or mechanical/electrical issue, it appears that the PIC failed to
maintain situational awareness.


Tragic.


Larry



FLIGHT TRACK LOG:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N133BW/history/20160515/1424Z/KMYF/KSMO/tracklog
Time (EDT) Latitude Longitude Course Direction KTS MPH
feet Rate Reporting Facility
Sun 10:37:00 AM Departure (KMYF) @ Sunday 07:37:00 AM PDT Los
Angeles Center
Sun 10:37:20 AM 32.8167 -117.1667 272? West 101 116 1,100
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:38:26 AM 32.8333 -117.2000 301? West 112 129 2,200
796 Climbing Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:39:13 AM 32.8361 -117.2214 279? West 105 121 2,600
606 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:40:15 AM 32.8639 -117.2439 325? Northwest 120 138
3,300 683 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:41:16 AM 32.8961 -117.2578 340? North 122 140 4,000
738 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:42:17 AM 32.9342 -117.2753 339? North 123 142 4,800
732 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:43:19 AM 32.9628 -117.2881 339? North 119 137 5,500
554 Climbing Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:44:27 AM 33.0000 -117.3000 345? North 103 119 6,000
246 Climbing Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:45:21 AM 33.0167 -117.3167 320? Northwest 126 145
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:46:27 AM 33.0667 -117.3333 345? North 131 151 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:47:27 AM 33.1000 -117.3500 337? Northwest 130 150
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:49:27 AM 33.1569 -117.3789 337? Northwest 131 151
6,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:50:29 AM 33.1969 -117.3972 339? North 131 151 6,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:51:30 AM 33.2311 -117.4139 338? Northwest 131 151
6,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:52:33 AM 33.2667 -117.4333 336? Northwest 134 154
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:54:33 AM 33.3167 -117.5000 312? West 133 153 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:55:33 AM 33.3333 -117.5333 301? West 133 153 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 10:57:39 AM 33.3911 -117.5944 318? Northwest 132 152
6,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:58:41 AM 33.4231 -117.6317 315? West 132 152 6,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 10:59:28 AM 33.4500 -117.6500 331? Northwest 135 155
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:00:40 AM 33.4833 -117.6833 320? Northwest 136 157
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:01:28 AM 33.5000 -117.7167 301? West 136 157 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:02:28 AM 33.5333 -117.7500 320? Northwest 137 158
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:03:34 AM 33.5500 -117.7833 301? West 138 159 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:04:40 AM 33.5833 -117.8167 320? Northwest 137 158
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:05:40 AM 33.6167 -117.8500 321? Northwest 136 157
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:06:29 AM 33.6333 -117.8833 301? West 135 155 6,000
Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:07:40 AM 33.6667 -117.9167 320? Northwest 138 159
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:08:40 AM 33.7000 -117.9500 320? Northwest 137 158
6,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:09:35 AM 33.7000 -117.9833 270? West 136 157 6,000
-261 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:10:35 AM 33.7333 -118.0333 309? West 151 174 5,500
-500 Descending Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:11:35 AM 33.7500 -118.0667 301? West 154 177 5,000
-550 Descending Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:12:35 AM 33.7667 -118.1167 292? West 153 176 4,400
-500 Descending Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:13:35 AM 33.7833 -118.1667 292? West 157 181 4,000
-267 Descending Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:14:05 AM 33.7969 -118.1886 307? West 153 176 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:15:07 AM 33.8158 -118.2303 299? West 148 170 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:16:09 AM 33.8350 -118.2725 299? West 147 169 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:17:11 AM 33.8622 -118.3069 313? West 156 180 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:18:12 AM 33.8981 -118.3442 319? Northwest 147 169
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:19:14 AM 33.9303 -118.3736 323? Northwest 146 168
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:20:16 AM 33.9617 -118.4025 323? Northwest 145 167
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:21:18 AM 33.9992 -118.3850 21? North 150 173 4,000
Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:22:29 AM 34.0333 -118.3333 51? Northeast 146 168
4,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:23:30 AM 34.0667 -118.3167 22? Northeast 145 167
4,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:24:29 AM 34.1000 -118.2833 40? Northeast 145 167
4,000 Level Southern California TRACON
Sun 11:26:28 AM 34.1586 -118.2178 43? Northeast 148 170
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:27:29 AM 34.1897 -118.1858 41? Northeast 148 170
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:28:31 AM 34.2214 -118.1539 40? Northeast 148 170
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:29:32 AM 34.2517 -118.1225 41? Northeast 148 170
4,000 Level Los Angeles Center
Sun 11:37:00 AM Arrival (KSMO) @ Sunday 08:37:00 AM PDT Revised




https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1606/pdf/05023VGA.PDF

On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 20:19:49 +0000 (UTC), (Don Poitras) wrote:


Nonsense. They vectored him for an instrument approach into Santa
Monica when he was just passed LAX. He never responded to later
instructions and flew another 15 minutes at 150 knots straight
into the hills to the north east. If ATC hadn't given him that
heading, he wouldn't have been able to fly the approach. Here's
a similar flight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...122Z/KMYF/KSMO


Larry Dighera wrote:


The Air Traffic Controller issued the flight a heading of 030 (toward the
mountains), evident in this video
http://www.cbs8.com/story/32010167/air-traffic-controllers-desperately-tired-to-save-san-diego-pilot-before-crash.

But that vector appears to have been omitted from the NTSB report.

At this point, it looks like ATC made an error to me.

--------------------------
You can see where the 030 sent the flight on maps on this page:
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/0...san-diego.html

  #6  
Old June 4th 16, 10:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Don Poitras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default ATC Vectors IFR Flight Into California Mountain

Larry Dighera wrote:

Which particular "bog-standard" ATC instructions are you referring to?


"3BW, turn left, a heading of 290, vector to final, descend and maintain 3000."

The pilot seems to have complied with all the instructions he acknowledged
receiving that I'm aware of prior to the handoff to SoCal. At that point it
appears that he lost radio contact with ATC and continued on the last vector he
had received. From the LiveATC recording, SoCal's 290 heading assignment
doesn't appear to have been received by the pilot.


Certainly it wasn't acknowledged.

N133BW is not on the LiveATC recording after the ATC handoff to SoCal at 01:05
into the recording he
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13234.0;attach=888 3.
That could be a result of many things.


The SoCal receiver is not the same as the Santa Monica tower receiver. These
are just volunteer radios, not official tapes from ATC. There's no way to
tell what the plane transmitted other than by inference.

Your assertion that there were transmissions from the aircraft after the
handoff to SoCal that were not captured on the LiveATC recording seems
unfounded. Do you have another source for those transmissions from the
aircraft that you believe are missing on the LiveATC recording?


The first SoCal transmission to the plane was clearly a response to a call
from the plane. He gave him the altimeter and didn't repeat it, which
implies the plane read it back correctly. Two and a half minutes later,
ATC gave him the vector to final which he didn't respond to. They then
repeatedly tried to get him to respond, even calling him on another
frequency. Two minutes later, it sounds as though ATC thought they had him,
"we've been trying to get ahold of you, turn left immediately and climb..."
Another 3 minutes of trying to get him to climb or turn, and then it was
too late.

I agree that the information available to date does not appear to imply a
violation by SoCal controllers.


Good. "ATC error" in a fatal crash is not something to be expressed without
a very good reason.

--
Don Poitras
 




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