Refinishing: Who has tried a shortcut?

Hello All

There has been quite a bit on refinishing on RAS recently. Most people
advocate that when gel-coat starts cracking up, it is essential to remove
it ALL.

Does anybody out their own a ship which was refinished without removing all
the gel-coat? What is the service history of these gliders?

If the RAS collective are right on this, I suspect that there will be a
number of hard luck stories out there from people who have discovered this
the hard way.

Personally, I know of many ships that have been resprayed. I suspect many of
them were not sanded down to glass and those that I see around don't look
too shabby. I can't help feeling that there is another side to this story.

I used to own a share in Nimbus II that was resprayed with poly urethane
paint (Glasflurit "Durothane K" they claimed) by the previous owner. I
don't know what condition the gel was prior to painting, or how much gel
was removed. There was no obvious sign of a primer layer under the paint
either.

However, I had it for 10 years and the poly finish was perfect when I sold.
The only problem we had with it was doing minor repairs. It was very
difficult to re-spray a small area without a visible brownish "water mark"
where the new and old paint met. But we just lived with a few water marks.

We used to polish the finish with a "liquid polymer" car polish. (Why not,
car polish on car paint, works on hundreds of thousands of cars ..) Can't
say we had a problems from that, except that I suspect it may be have had
something to do with the water marks.

For small dings we filled with body filler and/or high build poly urethane
primer, then resprayed with aerosol lacker. After sanding and polishing,
the results were pretty neat. For bigger repairs we masked off and
resprayed an entire "panel" with the original poly urethane, primer and top
coat.

After my experiences I would never pay anybody to refinish a glider with gel
coat. If I ever bought a new glider, and I had a choice, I would order a
urethane finish.

Now I have bought a share in an LS3a that has the original gel coat finish
over most of the surface. We keep it polished with a "silicon free" glazing
wax. But it is pretty cracked up and I am wondering how it is going to
become a urethane finish.

Who has been down this road before and tried a "short cut"?


Regards

Ian

U¿ytkownik Ian Forbes w wiadomooci do grup
dyskusyjnych ...

I used to own a share in Nimbus II that was resprayed with poly
urethane
paint (Glasflurit "Durothane K" they claimed) by the previous owner. I
don't know what condition the gel was prior to painting, or how much
gel
was removed. There was no obvious sign of a primer layer under the
paint
either.

Maybe it has been painted with polyurethane paint since new? Most of
German gliders some painted with gelcoat as a standard, but I think the
polyurethane paint is an option avaivalble after paying some dollars
more. Almost all (if not all) SZD glass gliders and their late wooden
designs were painted with polyurethatne as a standard fit when leaving
the production hall.


However, I had it for 10 years and the poly finish was perfect when I
sold.
The only problem we had with it was doing minor repairs. It was very
difficult to re-spray a small area without a visible brownish "water
mark"
where the new and old paint met. But we just lived with a few water
marks.

The paint You use, is fresh, new, etc. and the paint layer which has been
laid few years ago is just "old" due to sun, dust, and anything else with
what has it been in contact since painting. They're just different
because of age, and even if You have the same paint (the same catalogue
No.) effect most likely will be different in any case.

Regards,


--
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

Janusz Kesik wrote:

I used to own a share in Nimbus II that was resprayed with poly

Maybe it has been painted with polyurethane paint since new?

No, it was painted by the previous owner. Much of the manual work was done
by his son and his son's friend. I spoke to the friend about this, that is
how I know it was "Durathane K".

The only problem we had with it was doing minor repairs. It was very
difficult to re-spray a small area without a visible brownish "water
mark"
where the new and old paint met. But we just lived with a few water
marks.

The paint You use, is fresh, new, etc. and the paint layer which has been
laid few years ago is just "old" due to sun, dust, and anything else with
what has it been in contact since painting. They're just different
because of age, and even if You have the same paint (the same catalogue
No.) effect most likely will be different in any case.

The effect was cosmetic, and not readily visible, but annoying because no
amount of effort seemed to get rid of it.

I found that sanding the adjacent area with 1200 wet and dry prior to
spraying seemed to help prevent the mark, but it was always there to a
greater or lesser extent.

(Just like cracks in gel coat - they are always present, just the extent
varies!)

Car panel beaters always spray an entire mudguard, door, bonnet etc to avoid
this problem.


Ian

Refinish of Ventus b wings.

The only short cut I found was to uses very heavy grit paper to remove the
gel coat. I used 60 grit with a 7" rotary variable speed sander. As I got
close to the fabric I changed to 80 grit. Be carefully you don't sand into
the fabric. I can also recommend that when you profile your wings make sure
you roll or spray on enough surfacer, so you don't have to do it twice. I
also recommend using at least a 3' or 4' long aluminum extrusion to profile
the wings. Use adhesive paper or spray on adhesive. Make sure it is flat.
I intially used 80 grit to profile. The second time I used 200. Then
sprayed DCC acrylic urethane. So far I have 172 hours into the project. But
it finally looks shiney. Estimate about 25 hours left to wet sand polish
and assemble the flaps & ailerons.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com



"Ian Forbes" wrote in message
...
Janusz Kesik wrote:

I used to own a share in Nimbus II that was resprayed with poly

Maybe it has been painted with polyurethane paint since new?

No, it was painted by the previous owner. Much of the manual work was done
by his son and his son's friend. I spoke to the friend about this, that is
how I know it was "Durathane K".

The only problem we had with it was doing minor repairs. It was very
difficult to re-spray a small area without a visible brownish "water
mark"
where the new and old paint met. But we just lived with a few water
marks.

The paint You use, is fresh, new, etc. and the paint layer which has
been
laid few years ago is just "old" due to sun, dust, and anything else
with
what has it been in contact since painting. They're just different
because of age, and even if You have the same paint (the same catalogue
No.) effect most likely will be different in any case.

The effect was cosmetic, and not readily visible, but annoying because no
amount of effort seemed to get rid of it.

I found that sanding the adjacent area with 1200 wet and dry prior to
spraying seemed to help prevent the mark, but it was always there to a
greater or lesser extent.

(Just like cracks in gel coat - they are always present, just the extent
varies!)

Car panel beaters always spray an entire mudguard, door, bonnet etc to
avoid
this problem.


Ian

A previous owner of my ASW17 refinished the glider
in two pack acrylic. I was necessary to remove all
the gel coat before this was done and reprofile where
necessary. The gelcoat provided some of the profiling.
It is much easier to maintain than gelcoat and is not
as susceptible to cracking, so far.
I owned a Kestrel previously and we thought about stripping
off the gel and putting acrylic on that. Two reasons
for not doing it, firstly the gelcoat on the Kestrel
was bomb proof and the wings would have needed an awful
lot of profiling work we thought.
Also sanding off gelcoat is not the most health concious
thing you can do.

I have seen gliders which have been re-gelled in Poland
and the cost is about the same as stripping down and
painting with acrylic, it is just a question of durability.


At 14:00 16 December 2003, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
Refinish of Ventus b wings.

The only short cut I found was to uses very heavy grit
paper to remove the
gel coat. I used 60 grit with a 7' rotary variable
speed sander. As I got
close to the fabric I changed to 80 grit. Be carefully
you don't sand into
the fabric. I can also recommend that when you profile
your wings make sure
you roll or spray on enough surfacer, so you don't
have to do it twice. I
also recommend using at least a 3' or 4' long aluminum
extrusion to profile
the wings. Use adhesive paper or spray on adhesive.
Make sure it is flat.
I intially used 80 grit to profile. The second time
I used 200. Then
sprayed DCC acrylic urethane. So far I have 172 hours
into the project. But
it finally looks shiney. Estimate about 25 hours left
to wet sand polish
and assemble the flaps & ailerons.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com



'Ian Forbes' wrote in message
...
Janusz Kesik wrote:

I used to own a share in Nimbus II that was resprayed
with poly

Maybe it has been painted with polyurethane paint
since new?

No, it was painted by the previous owner. Much of
the manual work was done
by his son and his son's friend. I spoke to the friend
about this, that is
how I know it was 'Durathane K'.

The only problem we had with it was doing minor repairs.
It was very
difficult to re-spray a small area without a visible
brownish 'water
mark'
where the new and old paint met. But we just lived
with a few water
marks.

The paint You use, is fresh, new, etc. and the paint
layer which has
been
laid few years ago is just 'old' due to sun, dust,
and anything else
with
what has it been in contact since painting. They're
just different
because of age, and even if You have the same paint
(the same catalogue
No.) effect most likely will be different in any
case.

The effect was cosmetic, and not readily visible,
but annoying because no
amount of effort seemed to get rid of it.

I found that sanding the adjacent area with 1200 wet
and dry prior to
spraying seemed to help prevent the mark, but it was
always there to a
greater or lesser extent.

(Just like cracks in gel coat - they are always present,
just the extent
varies!)

Car panel beaters always spray an entire mudguard,
door, bonnet etc to
avoid
this problem.


Ian

Just got a quote on a Ventus Bt = 6900 Euro. Strip, reprofile and refinish
in acrylic, reseal controls including tape rebate routing, refurbish cockpit
including new carpets and trims and instrument panel respray, repaint
competition and registration marks and numbers. New weight and balance
sheet.

Ian

Ian,

Where did you get this quote and what is the contact
e-mail or web site or phone number?

Thanks,

Ray

At 16:54 16 December 2003, Tango4 wrote:
Just got a quote on a Ventus Bt = 6900 Euro. Strip,
reprofile and refinish
in acrylic, reseal controls including tape rebate routing,
refurbish cockpit
including new carpets and trims and instrument panel
respray, repaint
competition and registration marks and numbers. New
weight and balance
sheet.

Ian

We have a Pegasus here that was resprayed over the old gel coat. I
don't know much about how it was done as it was not done locally. What
I can tell you is that nearly every single one of the old cracks in
the gelcoat are now showing through the new finish. It probably looked
good when it was originally done but apparently didn't last very long.

Brian



Ian Forbes wrote in message ...
Hello All

There has been quite a bit on refinishing on RAS recently. Most people
advocate that when gel-coat starts cracking up, it is essential to remove
it ALL.

Does anybody out their own a ship which was refinished without removing all
the gel-coat? What is the service history of these gliders?

If the RAS collective are right on this, I suspect that there will be a
number of hard luck stories out there from people who have discovered this
the hard way.

snip

Brian Case wrote:

We have a Pegasus here that was resprayed over the old gel coat. I
don't know much about how it was done as it was not done locally. What
I can tell you is that nearly every single one of the old cracks in
the gelcoat are now showing through the new finish.

Do you know what was used for the new finish? Is it gel-coat or 2 part
polyurathane paint? If it is paint, what kind of primer went on underneath
it?

Ian

DG are now advocating the use of Polyurethane Paint, see the article on the
DG Web-site http://www.dgflugzeugbau.de/index-e.html , go to
"Innovations" then under "Comfort:" click on "Polyurethane Paint - The
Better Alternative".

The former owner of your ASW17 has also refinished an LS4 in the same way.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Don Johnstone" wrote in
message ...

A previous owner of my ASW17 refinished the glider
in two pack acrylic. I was necessary to remove all
the gel coat before this was done and reprofile where
necessary. The gelcoat provided some of the profiling.
It is much easier to maintain than gelcoat and is not
as susceptible to cracking, so far.
I owned a Kestrel previously and we thought about stripping
off the gel and putting acrylic on that. Two reasons
for not doing it, firstly the gelcoat on the Kestrel
was bomb proof and the wings would have needed an awful
lot of profiling work we thought.
Also sanding off gelcoat is not the most health conscious
thing you can do.

I have seen gliders which have been re-gelled in Poland
and the cost is about the same as stripping down and
painting with acrylic, it is just a question of durability.