Can I fly it at night?

I have a 1941 Chief with lights on it. There's one light on
each wingtip and one on the top of the fin. There's no
anticollision light/strobe or landing light. There are
wires from the 3 position lights to the cockpit, where they
end. The engine has no alternator or generator and never
has had one. There's no battery, battery compartment,
starter or electrical system. I do have a portable sealed
lead acid battery that I charge between flights to power a
radio and intercom.

There's nothing in the paperwork about "day VFR only" and
there's no AFM or even any POH.

I've looked at 91.209 and 91.205 (c). I've got position
lights, I won't be operating for hire, so I suppose a
landing light is not legally required. I suppose a larger
battery would be an adequate source of electrical energy for
short flights. Can I fly at night if I install an
anticollision light? Anyone want to comment on what I need
to legally fly at night for short local flights? Does
anyone think the disconnected lights have made the aircraft
legally unairworthy for the last 65 years? Does anyone know
how these were originally powered (Dry cells?)

Thanks for any information.

On 4 Jan 2006 09:06:03 -0600, bstanton null.com wrote in
::

I have a 1941 Chief with lights on it. [...] Does anyone know
how these were originally powered (Dry cells?)

Thanks for any information.

The information should be in the aircraft's Type Certificate. You
should be able to find it he
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...e?OpenFrameSet

I read it as you must have the anticollision light. We had to install
it on the Cessna 140 for this reason too. I think the only difference
is that you have more choice in color because of your age. I don't see
anything here that counters the statement "An approved aviation red or
aviation white anticollision light system".

91.205.(c)
(3) An approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light
system^M
on all U.S.-registered civil aircraft. Anticollision light systems
initially^M
installed after August 11, 1971, on aircraft for which a type
certificate^M
was^M
issued or applied for before August 11, 1971, must at least meet
the^M
anticollision light standards of part 23, 25, 27, or 29 of this
chapter, as^M
applicable, that were in effect on August 10, 1971, except that the
color^M
may^M
be either aviation red or aviation white. In the event of failure of
any^M
light of the anticollision light system, operations with the aircraft
may be^M
continued to a stop where repairs or replacement can be made.^M

In this case the type certificate doesn't make a difference. The FAA
current FARs seem to require a strobe for night flying. Its not like
college catalog rights, FAA FARs don't grant historic rights.

-Robert

I am very interested in the response to this question as well.
My clipper came with a full electrical system, nav lights and a panel light,
but no anti-collision.
The rules for anti-collision coverage don't go back as old as my plane, yet
I do not see any "grandfather" clause in the FARs.
I know there are rules that are not articulated in the FARs sometimes (like
shoulder harness rules).

Does anyone here know the whole story?

Mike


"bstanton" null.com wrote in message
...
I have a 1941 Chief with lights on it. There's one light on
each wingtip and one on the top of the fin. There's no
anticollision light/strobe or landing light. There are
wires from the 3 position lights to the cockpit, where they
end. The engine has no alternator or generator and never
has had one. There's no battery, battery compartment,
starter or electrical system. I do have a portable sealed
lead acid battery that I charge between flights to power a
radio and intercom.

There's nothing in the paperwork about "day VFR only" and
there's no AFM or even any POH.

I've looked at 91.209 and 91.205 (c). I've got position
lights, I won't be operating for hire, so I suppose a
landing light is not legally required. I suppose a larger
battery would be an adequate source of electrical energy for
short flights. Can I fly at night if I install an
anticollision light? Anyone want to comment on what I need
to legally fly at night for short local flights? Does
anyone think the disconnected lights have made the aircraft
legally unairworthy for the last 65 years? Does anyone know
how these were originally powered (Dry cells?)

Thanks for any information.

See an aircraft mechanic who will ...
install a legal anti-collision light (LED strobe uses the
least power)
fabricate a proper battery box for a battery,
perhaps install a voltmeter,
fabricate an electrical bus, circuit breaker and switch,
perhaps an external power connection for charging,
do the weight and balance and update the paperwork and
aircraft logs.

The airplane may have had an external wind-driven generator
originally, you could restore that with a modern alternator
at the cost of a 1 or 2 mph.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"bstanton" null.com wrote in message
...
|I have a 1941 Chief with lights on it. There's one light
on
| each wingtip and one on the top of the fin. There's no
| anticollision light/strobe or landing light. There are
| wires from the 3 position lights to the cockpit, where
they
| end. The engine has no alternator or generator and never
| has had one. There's no battery, battery compartment,
| starter or electrical system. I do have a portable
sealed
| lead acid battery that I charge between flights to power a
| radio and intercom.
|
| There's nothing in the paperwork about "day VFR only" and
| there's no AFM or even any POH.
|
| I've looked at 91.209 and 91.205 (c). I've got position
| lights, I won't be operating for hire, so I suppose a
| landing light is not legally required. I suppose a larger
| battery would be an adequate source of electrical energy
for
| short flights. Can I fly at night if I install an
| anticollision light? Anyone want to comment on what I
need
| to legally fly at night for short local flights? Does
| anyone think the disconnected lights have made the
aircraft
| legally unairworthy for the last 65 years? Does anyone
know
| how these were originally powered (Dry cells?)
|
| Thanks for any information.

Is there room in a Chief to put an alternator? When I had my Chief we
thought about this for a minute and decided it was way too much work. I
did look at a Champ that had the wind generator thing but it seemed
that it put out very limited power. When you only have a few hundred
pounds of useful load adding a battery can seem overwhelming.

-Robert

"bstanton" null.com wrote in message
...

I have a 1941 Chief with lights on it. There's one light on
each wingtip and one on the top of the fin. There's no
anticollision light/strobe or landing light. There are
wires from the 3 position lights to the cockpit, where they
end. The engine has no alternator or generator and never
has had one. There's no battery, battery compartment,
starter or electrical system. I do have a portable sealed
lead acid battery that I charge between flights to power a
radio and intercom.

There's nothing in the paperwork about "day VFR only" and
there's no AFM or even any POH.

I've looked at 91.209 and 91.205 (c). I've got position
lights, I won't be operating for hire, so I suppose a
landing light is not legally required. I suppose a larger
battery would be an adequate source of electrical energy for
short flights. Can I fly at night if I install an
anticollision light? Anyone want to comment on what I need
to legally fly at night for short local flights? Does
anyone think the disconnected lights have made the aircraft
legally unairworthy for the last 65 years? Does anyone know
how these were originally powered (Dry cells?)


This doesn't seem to be worth the trouble for only short flights. Let's say
you are able to install the required lighting and operate it with only a
battery. Are you going to be content to make only short flights at night,
or are you going to wish you could fly a bit further? Longer flights would
require a complete engine-driven electrical system, which is probably out of
the question. If you want to fly at night sell the Chief and buy an
airplane with an electrical system.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

I read it as you must have the anticollision light.

That's how I read it too.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:


This doesn't seem to be worth the trouble for only short flights. Let's say
you are able to install the required lighting and operate it with only a
battery. Are you going to be content to make only short flights at night,
or are you going to wish you could fly a bit further?

I think the answer is yes, I'd be OK with short flights.
Here's my thinking:

1) I could keep night currency. That way I could just rent
a plane with lights and an electrical system for longer
night flights with less hassle and less expense getting
current. Right now, if I want to rent a plane and return at
night it's a royal pain to get night current before the
flight I want to make, and half the time the planned
night-return flight gets canceled anyway.

2) I could still do the quick flight up and around the
pattern with a friend who wanted to just see what it looked
like at night.

3) I would have a bit more flexibility with return flights.
I've occasionally found more headwind than expected and
worried about making it home before night.

4) It would be nice to make myself a bit more more visible
in the pattern at the end of a flight.

It appears a wind driven generator was probably originally
used for the lights - are they still available?