FAR 91.157 Operating in icing conditions

I KNOW this is a big can of worms, but I have a specific question
relating to sub-paragraphs b.1 and b.2 of this regulation regarinding
operating in icing conditions.

It says "...no pilot may fly--
(1) Under IFR into konwn or forecast moderate icing conditions; or
(2) Under VFR into known light or moderate icing conditions..."

This seems odd. Why do you suppose the standards are different for IFR
and VFR ("moderate" vs "light or moderate)? Icing affects a pilots
ability to control the aircraft, so I do not see how instrument training
allows one to venture into worse conditions.

So, if there is an airmet for "light icing", then it is legal for an IFR
pilot to enter the clouds (of course, on a valid IFR flight plan)?

What perectnage of the time, during winter, do icing forecasts get
issued whenever there are IFR conditions? In other words, in y'alls
experience, if you get 100 briefings during the winter time that include
IFR conditions, what perecntage of those will also have icing forecast.
My intuition says that it will be upwards of 90-100% (I am a
relatively new IFR pilot, so I do not have the experience base to
say...looking for other opinions here). If it is close to 100%, should
I just hang up my IFR certificate from Sept to May (I live in Wisconsin,
so we only have about 30 minutes of summer here per year ).

-Sami

The FAR reference is 91.527, not what's in the title.

Ooops, yes, thanks. -Sami

Greg Esres wrote:
The FAR reference is 91.527, not what's in the title.

I have to read the AIM again, but last year I thought it said that you were
not allowed to fly into known or forcasted icing in a plane not equipped for
icing.

As for percent of time, anytime you have visible moisture or are in the
clouds, and the outside temp is freezing. weather reports will give you the
freezing level.

The smart thing to do is to avoid icing like the plague. Its bad stuff and
can build up quick on your windscreen and wings.
Alot of people will tell you you can fly into it, and when you pick up ice
you can go up or down and get out of it. Read the NTSB reports this winter
see how many people bet their life on it and lost.

Last winter I took a flight into clouds, icing was forcasted at 10,000 ft,
we went up to 9000, broke out in between some layers, I was with my first
instrument instructor, he wanted to be in the clouds, so he asked control
for 11,000 so we would be in the clouds again, I told him icing was reported
at 10k, he said dont worry, we will be ok, we can always go up or down...I
told him ok, but if you kill me I will come back and haunt you forever. I
will tell you right now, its a big mistake to go into known or forcasted
icing. I wont do it again. I told him after we encountered some problems
that I was going back and called center. He was mad, but it didnt matter, I
fired his ass as soon as we were on the ground.

Jeff


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

I KNOW this is a big can of worms, but I have a specific question
relating to sub-paragraphs b.1 and b.2 of this regulation regarinding
operating in icing conditions.

It says "...no pilot may fly--
(1) Under IFR into konwn or forecast moderate icing conditions; or
(2) Under VFR into known light or moderate icing conditions..."

This seems odd. Why do you suppose the standards are different for IFR
and VFR ("moderate" vs "light or moderate)? Icing affects a pilots
ability to control the aircraft, so I do not see how instrument training
allows one to venture into worse conditions.

So, if there is an airmet for "light icing", then it is legal for an IFR
pilot to enter the clouds (of course, on a valid IFR flight plan)?

What perectnage of the time, during winter, do icing forecasts get
issued whenever there are IFR conditions? In other words, in y'alls
experience, if you get 100 briefings during the winter time that include
IFR conditions, what perecntage of those will also have icing forecast.
My intuition says that it will be upwards of 90-100% (I am a
relatively new IFR pilot, so I do not have the experience base to
say...looking for other opinions here). If it is close to 100%, should
I just hang up my IFR certificate from Sept to May (I live in Wisconsin,
so we only have about 30 minutes of summer here per year ).

-Sami

Jeff wrote:
: Last winter I took a flight into clouds, icing was forcasted at 10,000 ft,
: we went up to 9000, broke out in between some layers, I was with my first
: instrument instructor, he wanted to be in the clouds, so he asked control
: for 11,000 so we would be in the clouds again, I told him icing was reported
: at 10k, he said dont worry, we will be ok, we can always go up or down...I
: told him ok, but if you kill me I will come back and haunt you forever. I
: will tell you right now, its a big mistake to go into known or forcasted
: icing. I wont do it again. I told him after we encountered some problems
: that I was going back and called center. He was mad, but it didnt matter, I
: fired his ass as soon as we were on the ground.

I don't think that this was an unreasonable thing for an
instructor to do (assuming you weren't in Colorado at the time). If
you've got at least a few thousand feet between the freezing level and the
MEA, you've got an out. This is assuming light rime ice, of course. My
instructor put me in the clouds while working on the instrument time for
my *Private* license, and we picked up a bit of ice while there. At the
time it freaked me out, but in retrospect it was pretty safe (at least
3000' of clear, above-freezing air below), and made me realize how
dangerous ice could be.

What kills people is when they fly in it with either a disregard
for its danger, and/or without a safety out.

-Cory
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

MEA was 9000 ft - there were other things he did also that I did not go into like
when center told me to intercept 394, so he goes looking on the OBS for 394
degrees, I told him there was no such thing as 394 degrees and they ment V394, he
wouldnt believe me till I showed him the map. then there was a few other things he
did.

Jeff

wrote:

Jeff wrote:
: Last winter I took a flight into clouds, icing was forcasted at 10,000 ft,
: we went up to 9000, broke out in between some layers, I was with my first
: instrument instructor, he wanted to be in the clouds, so he asked control
: for 11,000 so we would be in the clouds again, I told him icing was reported
: at 10k, he said dont worry, we will be ok, we can always go up or down...I
: told him ok, but if you kill me I will come back and haunt you forever. I
: will tell you right now, its a big mistake to go into known or forcasted
: icing. I wont do it again. I told him after we encountered some problems
: that I was going back and called center. He was mad, but it didnt matter, I
: fired his ass as soon as we were on the ground.

I don't think that this was an unreasonable thing for an
instructor to do (assuming you weren't in Colorado at the time). If
you've got at least a few thousand feet between the freezing level and the
MEA, you've got an out. This is assuming light rime ice, of course. My
instructor put me in the clouds while working on the instrument time for
my *Private* license, and we picked up a bit of ice while there. At the
time it freaked me out, but in retrospect it was pretty safe (at least
3000' of clear, above-freezing air below), and made me realize how
dangerous ice could be.

What kills people is when they fly in it with either a disregard
for its danger, and/or without a safety out.

-Cory
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

My instructor put me in the clouds while working on the instrument
time for
my *Private* license, and we picked up a bit of ice while there.

I know you were the student but how did the instructor knowingly break
the VFR visibility requirements if you were in the clouds? It wasn't
my ass that the plane was strapped to but just wondering.

BTW, I actually asked my instructor to file a an IFR plan so I can
get some actual time when I was (still am since my PPL checkride
is December 17th) but he said to save it for my IFR ticket which
should begin sooner rather than later.

Gerald

"Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message
news

I know you were the student but how did the instructor knowingly break
the VFR visibility requirements if you were in the clouds?


Nothing in his statement suggested any rule was broken. Primary training is
not limited to VFR operations. The instructor can easily pick up an IFR
clearance or this may have happened in Class G airspace.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

: "Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message
: news :
: I know you were the student but how did the instructor knowingly break
: the VFR visibility requirements if you were in the clouds?
:

: Nothing in his statement suggested any rule was broken. Primary training is
: not limited to VFR operations. The instructor can easily pick up an IFR
: clearance or this may have happened in Class G airspace.

Exactly.... and I'm not going to specify how it was done.... just that it was
done, and I'm glad for the experience.

-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

"Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message
news
BTW, I actually asked my instructor to file a an IFR plan so I can
get some actual time when I was (still am since my PPL checkride
is December 17th)

What a great day for a checkride! Best wishes.

-- David Brooks (IR checkride 12/17/02)