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#21
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Did I mention that our Govorner Vilsak has cut spending on airports to
virtually nothing? This is the same guy that has to have somebody print his e-mails, so that he can read them, and write replys via US Mail. In an article last week, he says that he is technologically behind. Damn liberals. Jeff |
#22
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Ouch. Where to begin?
The Cedar Rapids airport is easily within 20 minutes of the Iowa City airport. This is nonsense. I drive it all the time, and I can't make it in 20 minutes, door to door. At least not legally. It's more like 30. Small runways for charter planes (athletics) Well, come see the place on "football Saturdays" this fall. You won't believe some of the mini-airliners that get in here! Also, when they close RWY 18/36 in the next year or three, Rwy 07 is slated to be shortened on the east, and Rwy 25 is to be extended to the west. They're also supposed to get an ILS approach at that time. (Ha! I'm not holding my breath...) Development around the airport- some see an accident into the Wal-Mart/Menards just waiting to happen. Some recent crashes into the hill to the north keep this argument going (BTW, I know that there were reasons for the crashes) Worse, they're now building a 500 unit apartment complex on that very same hill. That's a bunch of trouble brewing, for the airport and many other reasons. (Traffic will be a bitch, for sure, with an extra 500 folks in such a tiny area.) Approach/departure over the city Approach/Depature over Kinnick Stadium Waste of good land- Why in the world do you need three crossing runways? See the note above about closing 18/36. There won't be anyone departing over the city after that closes. Proximity to Cedar Rapids- Cedar Rapids- only about 15-20 min. away Now we're down to 15 minutes? Dang, Jeff, what are you driving nowadays? Services at Cedar Rapids- Tower, security, ILS approaches, crossing large runways, pleny of room for more GA hangars, snow removal, police, fire, general maintenance, good hangars The horrible thing about Cedar Rapids is the security and commercial activity. Iowa City has the finest GA airport in the nation -- or at least it's the best I've seen in almost ten years of buzzing around the country. Every fly-in guest at the inn comments on it, almost without exception. Duplication- To the layperson (in fact even to me) it seems to be close enough to each other that one would do. Iowa city would not only have no expenses, but Cedar Rapids could become stronger Actually, it would make a lot more sense to close the Cedar Rapids tower (a true waste of the taxpayer's dollar) and transfer the commercial flights back to Iowa City, from whence they came. But that won't happen either... Liberals- Iowa City is chuck pack full of liberals that really don't care about folks rich enough to be able to fly. Boy, that's for sure. And, as under-employed university folks, they've got all day to stew about it over a cup of mocha... Medical flights- Most are by copter- doesn't matter Actually, most transplant organs arrive in fixed wing aircraft. Speed is life, and copters often just won't do. Transplant stuff- 20 minutes to CID no big deal. thats the reason for the igloo's They measure the success of those transplants based on the "age" of the donor organ. 20 minutes (more like 30-35) is forever when you're getting a lung from Michigan... FBO's- choice of two in Cedar Rapids (Although you probably would not count PS Air) I always liked the guys at PS Air -- they just don't know anything about running a business. And they sure stiffed Iowa City when they packed up and fled in the middle of the night. All of our current problems flow all the way back to those *******s insisting on that stupidly huge hangar. Dollars- Lots of commercial operations to pay the way. Virtually none in Iowa City. The City Council and Mayor of Iowa City have stood firmly against the evils of "development" for the past 40 years (or so I've been told). They wanted Iowa City to remain a bucolic, pretty little University town, and enacted dozens of laws that essentially drove all new business away. (Coralridge Mall -- the largest in the state -- was supposed to be built in Iowa City. After hearing all the environmental crap they would be required to do, the developers walked over to Coralville, and built it the way they wanted it built.) Now that Coralville and North Liberty are literally eating Iowa City's lunch, they seem to be changing their tune. Let's hope it's not too late. Lack of potential growth- I do not believe that any two of the three runways could ever be expanded. See the note about RWY 25, above. The land has been purchased, and all they need is the go ahead. (Which may never come, of course.) Opportunity costs- Current use vs. the tax base of developement. The newer hangar could have other uses if developed around. Money in rather than money out looks good. The deal about streets doesn't hold much water because virtually everybody uses the streets. Brian Sponcil (an occasional contributor to this group) did some digging into the Iowa City annual budget, and discovered that we spent as much last year on "cemetery beautification" as we did on the airport. That's CEMETERY BEAUTIFICATION, Jeff! I think it's obvious that we can afford to keep the airport open -- the issue is just a huge smoke-screen put up by the local politicians, so that they look like they're "doing something" about the budget deficit. And the liberals in town are glad to fan the class warfare flames. Cedar Rapids Airport Commision- I think that they squashed the Marion Airport expansion a couple of years ago. It is my opinion that they will get in your shorts also (I am golfing with one of the commission members this week. I will pick his brain) ??? I don't know anything about this. Can you expand on this a bit -- it must've been before we moved here in '97? Plenty of land around the Cedar Rapids Airport- Enough room for a re-located aviation themed hotel True -- but there's little reason to visit Cedar Rapids. (Sorry!) It is certainly not that I would like to see it closed, they just have plenty of reasons to close it. I personally feel that it is just a matter of time. Well, that's probably true of all but a dozen or so airports in the country. I just hope that the inevitable happens long after I've flown my final flight. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#23
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Ouch. Where to begin?
It is not that I totally disagree with you, but, we do need to realize that there is a pretty good argument towards not having an Iowa City airport. Heres the "Devils Advocate" in me. The Cedar Rapids airport is easily within 20 minutes of the Iowa City airport. This is nonsense. I drive it all the time, and I can't make it in 20 minutes, door to door. At least not legally. It's more like 30. Ahhhh, you must be the guy slowing me down!!! Small runways for charter planes (athletics) Well, come see the place on "football Saturdays" this fall. You won't believe some of the mini-airliners that get in here! Been there, done that! Do the citizens of the city want to afford that luxury to the "high rollers"? What about the other 355 days of the year. They could all fly into Cedar Rapids. Also, when they close RWY 18/36 in the next year or three, Rwy 07 is slated to be shortened on the east, and Rwy 25 is to be extended to the west. They're also supposed to get an ILS approach at that time. If the trucks show up in the middle of the night to "start" construction, get worried. (Ha! I'm not holding my breath...) Don't hold your breath to long, or there may be more than just a truck called the purple grape! Development around the airport- some see an accident into the Wal-Mart/Menards just waiting to happen. Some recent crashes into the hill to the north keep this argument going (BTW, I know that there were reasons for the crashes) Worse, they're now building a 500 unit apartment complex on that very same hill. That's a bunch of trouble brewing, for the airport and many other reasons. (Traffic will be a bitch, for sure, with an extra 500 folks in such a tiny area.) Yea, I know. It's a bitch that they build and then complain. Having said that, the tax base of those 500 units will more than make up for what the rich folks drop to come in for football. Just think about the potential tax base sitting there on the field. It is a pretty good argument. Wait till a guy runs out of gas ans screws himself into one! Approach/departure over the city Approach/Depature over Kinnick Stadium Waste of good land- Why in the world do you need three crossing runways? See the note above about closing 18/36. There won't be anyone departing over the city after that closes. That may be the only thing that saves the airport. One more knucklehead crashing anywhere close to the population will shut it down. Proximity to Cedar Rapids- Cedar Rapids- only about 15-20 min. away Now we're down to 15 minutes? Dang, Jeff, what are you driving nowadays? A Ford Excursion, stay the hell out of my way! Just kidding. i will look at the clock a little closer next time I drive it and report back. The two airports had viability when we relied only on the old 2 lane 218 to get us to Iowa City. That was probably an hour drive airport to airport back then. With 380 built in the late 70's, it effectively brought the cities closer together. Services at Cedar Rapids- Tower, security, ILS approaches, crossing large runways, pleny of room for more GA hangars, snow removal, police, fire, general maintenance, good hangars The horrible thing about Cedar Rapids is the security and commercial activity. Iowa City has the finest GA airport in the nation -- or at least it's the best I've seen in almost ten years of buzzing around the country. Every fly-in guest at the inn comments on it, almost without exception. What is horrible about the security. I hangar there and have NEVER had a problem at all. In fact, I do not have to worry as much about my plane/belongings. Don't argue the security thing with non-flyers, or they will close you down for sure. I am not sure what it is worth to the citizens of Iowa City, or, the citizens of Iowa that you have the finest GA airport. I agree with you, but it is not important for me to subsidize it with my dollars. Duplication- To the layperson (in fact even to me) it seems to be close enough to each other that one would do. Iowa city would not only have no expenses, but Cedar Rapids could become stronger Actually, it would make a lot more sense to close the Cedar Rapids tower (a true waste of the taxpayer's dollar) and transfer the commercial flights back to Iowa City, from whence they came. But that won't happen either... Wow, now that would be unsafe!!! Do you really think that IOW have the infrastructure to handle the commercials along with UPS, Fed EX, and others. Do you believe that there is any way that Rockwell Collins (headquartered in Cedar Rapids) would move to Iowa City. There in NO WAY that IOW comes even close. I will say that the non-GA folks would go for a tower over saving Iowa City. Keep in mind...nobody really cares about GA except for the sliver of the population that flies these little things. Liberals- Iowa City is chuck pack full of liberals that really don't care about folks rich enough to be able to fly. Boy, that's for sure. And, as under-employed university folks, they've got all day to stew about it over a cup of mocha... Keep'em down there!!! Medical flights- Most are by copter- doesn't matter Actually, most transplant organs arrive in fixed wing aircraft. Speed is life, and copters often just won't do. Ah, I said medical flights. Transplants could come into CID. Transplant stuff- 20 minutes to CID no big deal. thats the reason for the igloo's They measure the success of those transplants based on the "age" of the donor organ. 20 minutes (more like 30-35) is forever when you're getting a lung from Michigan... A copter waiting at Cedar Rapids could cut it even more. May be quicker/safer than the drive from the airport. Could land at the hospital helipad. Would certainly be less expensive to the folks in Iowa City by changing the airport into tax base. FBO's- choice of two in Cedar Rapids (Although you probably would not count PS Air) I always liked the guys at PS Air -- they just don't know anything about running a business. And they sure stiffed Iowa City when they packed up and fled in the middle of the night. All of our current problems flow all the way back to those *******s insisting on that stupidly huge hangar. Wasn't there also a guy that was going to have a charter operation that put up $1,000,000 worth of United Airlines stock, for the bank to figure out later that he had altered it, and he only had $10,000 worth (nowadays worthless)? I don't think that it was all PS Air. Dollars- Lots of commercial operations to pay the way. Virtually none in Iowa City. The City Council and Mayor of Iowa City have stood firmly against the evils of "development" for the past 40 years (or so I've been told). They wanted Iowa City to remain a bucolic, pretty little University town, and enacted dozens of laws that essentially drove all new business away. (Coralridge Mall -- the largest in the state -- was supposed to be built in Iowa City. After hearing all the environmental crap they would be required to do, the developers walked over to Coralville, and built it the way they wanted it built.) Now that Coralville and North Liberty are literally eating Iowa City's lunch, they seem to be changing their tune. Let's hope it's not too late. It very well may be too late. Urbana to Cedar Rapids to Coralville to Iowa city will be the corridor. Iowa City sits on the end of the line, and they think way different than most of us Iowa folks. Lack of potential growth- I do not believe that any two of the three runways could ever be expanded. See the note about RWY 25, above. The land has been purchased, and all they need is the go ahead. (Which may never come, of course.) That is one runway, you need to have a viable crosswind to be a viable commercial airport so I am told. My bet is that it does not happen. Opportunity costs- Current use vs. the tax base of developement. The newer hangar could have other uses if developed around. Money in rather than money out looks good. The deal about streets doesn't hold much water because virtually everybody uses the streets. Brian Sponcil (an occasional contributor to this group) did some digging into the Iowa City annual budget, and discovered that we spent as much last year on "cemetery beautification" as we did on the airport. That's CEMETERY BEAUTIFICATION, Jeff! I think it's obvious that we can afford to keep the airport open -- the issue is just a huge smoke-screen put up by the local politicians, so that they look like they're "doing something" about the budget deficit. And the liberals in town are glad to fan the class warfare flames. Stick with that argument and they will not only close the airport, but also you will begin to have ugly cemeteries!!! My point is that you cannot argue the fact that the potential tax base sitting there could bring to the citizens of Iowa City lower property taxes, and a nicer enviroment for everybody, except the few that fly. Very small %. Cedar Rapids Airport Commision- I think that they squashed the Marion Airport expansion a couple of years ago. It is my opinion that they will get in your shorts also (I am golfing with one of the commission members this week. I will pick his brain) ??? I don't know anything about this. Can you expand on this a bit -- it must've been before we moved here in '97? A few years ago, Marion wanted to expand 18/36, and add a crosswind runway. The word that I got was that the Cedar Rapids Airport Commission had enough clout to effectively shut it down. They did not want marion to take any "operations", the number that federal dollars are determined by. Expanding IOW would very well do the same thing. I don't know if you noticed or not, but the Cedar Rapids Municiple Airport (as known by the FAA), is now going by the name of The Eastern Iowa Airport. They really expect for this airport to service alot of eastern iowa. CID is just completing the finsh stages of the 13/31 runway expansion project. We now have two real runways for real planes (as seen in the eyes of the public). For typical Joe, there would be no comparison between CID and IOW. Jon Ochenfels may know more of the details. Plenty of land around the Cedar Rapids Airport- Enough room for a re-located aviation themed hotel True -- but there's little reason to visit Cedar Rapids. (Sorry!) Ouch, c'mon now. The reason in the future to come to Cedar Rapids may be to LAND your plane!!! It is certainly not that I would like to see it closed, they just have plenty of reasons to close it. I personally feel that it is just a matter of time. Well, that's probably true of all but a dozen or so airports in the country. I just hope that the inevitable happens long after I've flown my final flight. I agree, and it is not that I personally believe that it should be closed. In reality, though, there is a pretty strong argument to do so. In a time where budgets must be cut, it may be an easy place to do just that. Iowa City has the foresight of a nightcrawler at times. I would guess that 95% of Iowa City residents really don't care if the airport closes, as they do not use it. I would guess that many of those would rather see a U of I expansion, or something else to bring jobs utilizing the same dirt. A psycology teacher that I had at one time made us argue the counterpoint of anything that we felt strongly for/against. It really made me see the other side and come up with better arguments to support my case. I think that it may be time to figure out those arguments. Later, Jeff |
#24
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jeff wrote: That is one runway, you need to have a viable crosswind to be a viable commercial airport so I am told. My bet is that it does not happen. I wouldn't be too sure about that. Hartsfield (ATL) has four runways, all lined up the same way (though you could probably set my Maule down sideways on one of them). Knoxville (TYS) has two, both running the same direction. Maybe it's a requirement in the midwest. A psycology teacher that I had at one time made us argue the counterpoint of anything that we felt strongly for/against. It really made me see the other side and come up with better arguments to support my case. I think that it may be time to figure out those arguments. Good teacher. George Patterson The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist is afraid that he's correct. James Branch Cavel |
#25
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"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ...
jeff wrote: That is one runway, you need to have a viable crosswind to be a viable commercial airport so I am told. My bet is that it does not happen. I wouldn't be too sure about that. Hartsfield (ATL) has four runways, all lined up the same way (though you could probably set my Maule down sideways on one of them). Knoxville (TYS) has two, both running the same direction. Maybe it's a requirement in the midwest. I could also very well be wrong, although, even if so, I would think that any commercial operator would rather have the opportunity for a crosss wind runway. I would think that this would help them as far as scheduling and costly delays when it gets really windy. I do not believe that there would be any doubt that Cedar Rapids would be the airport of choice for any of the commercial airlines. On top of that, the airports are only about 5 or 10 minutes away from each other............gotcha Jay (actually about 20). It could possibly be that one central airport could be much stronger than two, seperately run airports, IMO. A psycology teacher that I had at one time made us argue the counterpoint of anything that we felt strongly for/against. It really made me see the other side and come up with better arguments to support my case. I think that it may be time to figure out those arguments. Good teacher. George Patterson The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist is afraid that he's correct. James Branch Cavel |
#26
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Jay Honeck wrote: You are probably right. But I'm hard-pressed to name another similar-sized university-town anywhere in the country that does NOT have a municipal airport. Can you think of any? New Brunswick, NJ, for one. Rutgers is there. Princeton also has no municipal airport, though there is a privately owned one there. The citizenry would love to get rid of that one, too. George Patterson The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist is afraid that he's correct. James Branch Cavel |
#27
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On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:44:32 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote: You are probably right. But I'm hard-pressed to name another similar-sized university-town anywhere in the country that does NOT have a municipal airport. Can you think of any? A few in California. Here's the situation at the State University campi: The little airport at UC Davis is owned by the U. It's been under some pressure recently, but there are other small strips nearby UC Santa Cruz: closest public airport is Watsonville -- not so close. UC Berkeley: Oakland UCLA: Santa Monica and Van Nuys UC Riverside: Riverside UC Santa Barbara: Santa Barbara is adjacent to campus UC Irvine: John Wayne UC San Diego: Lindbergh, but I don't think it's particularly GA-friendly. GA airports are out a ways. UC Merced: When it opens next year will have not only Merced, but ex-Castle airbase (A****er) with its enormous runways. California State University has 23 campi. The only one I'm not sure about having a convenient GA airport is San Marcos, because I've mislaid my LA sectional. Don |
#28
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"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ... New Brunswick, NJ, for one. Rutgers is there. Princeton also has no municipal airport, though there is a privately owned one there. The citizenry would love to get rid of that one, too. And the while it is called "Princeton" it isn't really that close to Princeton (nor is the Princeton Junction NE Corridor station). College Park (MD) has an airport, but you can't fly there. |
#29
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A psycology teacher that I had at one time made us argue the
counterpoint of anything that we felt strongly for/against. It really made me see the other side and come up with better arguments to support my case. I think that it may be time to figure out those arguments. He was an excellent teacher. However, for the time-being I'd appreciate it if you would use these same logical skills and argue as vociferously on MY side of this argument! I will be there fighting, if need be. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see it stay. I guess that my point is that if we cannot come up with any better arguments that what we have discussed, it will be lights out. It would be REALLY benefitial, as another poster stated, if a local, or incoming business would use the airport more. As I understand it, without PS Air, even the charters are very limited. I do have a friend that USED to manage the Wal-Mart down there. He said that they would regularly "pop in" down there as they were flying around. Don't know haw many ops they do, but that would be a better argument than the cemetary thing. IT may be, if iowa City would pull it's head out of their ass's, the new convention center slated to be in Coralville could help your cause. If you do not become pro-active though, as a city, all of this traffic will go to Cedar Rapids because of the issues that I earlier discussed. I'll let you know what I find out from one of the CR Airport comissioners next time I see him. Later (have fun at the party), Jeff |
#30
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local, or incoming business would use the airport more. As I
understand it, without PS Air, even the charters are very limited. Actually, by my uneducated guess (I only know what I can see on the ramp), it seems that Jet Air has generated MORE charter business. But that's really hard for me to gauge. IT may be, if iowa City would pull it's head out of their ass's, the new convention center slated to be in Coralville could help your cause. Augh! Don't even get me started on THAT boondoggle. I can't believe that Coralville is following Iowa City's absurd lead by using taxpayer money to fund another hotel in the area! Dammit, if there was a real need for another hotel in the area, doncha think that Sheraton/Holiday/Ramada/Embassy/Super/Motel 6 would be standing in line to build it? -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
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