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#1
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FAR rules on "ground-effect" vehicles?
Does anyone here know if / what-section-of FAR rules govern the operation of
"ground effect" vehicles? Specifically, how high can a machine fly AGL before its technically classified as an aircraft and not a hovercraft, hydroplane-boat, Ecronoplan, etc.? Is there a loophole for a powered airplane that can't climb to more than 5' AGL? Second question: If a machine has tricycle gear with nosewheel steering, wings and 3-axis control, and is solely propelled by thrust from an engine/propeller, BUT CANNOT FLY, how is it classified? Trike motorcycle? NOTE: Both of these questions relate to a proposed machine that will weigh more than 254lbs dry, i.e. not Part 103 legal. Serious responses please. I'm looking to find and verify a specific FAR rule, as the correct answer to this question is critical for legal, operational, and insurance purposes. Thanks, Harry Frey Wright Brothers Enterprises |
#2
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Does anyone here know if / what-section-of FAR rules govern the operation of
"ground effect" vehicles? Specifically, how high can a machine fly AGL before its technically classified as an aircraft and not a hovercraft, hydroplane-boat, Ecronoplan, etc.? Is there a loophole for a powered airplane that can't climb to more than 5' AGL? Second question: If a machine has tricycle gear with nosewheel steering, wings and 3-axis control, and is solely propelled by thrust from an engine/propeller, BUT CANNOT FLY, how is it classified? Trike motorcycle? NOTE: Both of these questions relate to a proposed machine that will weigh more than 254lbs dry, i.e. not Part 103 legal. Serious responses please. I'm looking to find and verify a specific FAR rule, as the correct answer to this question is critical for legal, operational, and insurance purposes. Thanks, Harry Frey Wright Brothers Enterprises Do an internet search on hovercrafts, WIG, Wing in Ground effect etc etc.... I dont remember the exact sites, but IIRC as long as it CANNOT get and stay out of ground effect, ie KEEP gaining altitude...it AINT an aircraft...and it can wiegh what ever you want....though its still a good idea to keep it light.....(though high hops that utilize the vehicles kinetic engery, trading off temporary altitude for speed are allowed)....its considered an ocean going vessel and you actually have/should register it with the coast guard....and if you do you'll probably be one of only a handful of people on the planet that has such a registration..... Now if you fly it over land I have no idea who you talk too....but besides Groom lake i dont have a clue where youd fly such a thing over land.... here is one site I happen to have: http://www.se-technology.com/wig/index.php take care Blll |
#4
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Hi,
found a few old WIG links last night.... these have pics of WIG hovercraft flying.... http://popularmechanics.com/outdoors...ts/print.phtml http://www.hovercraft.com/ http://www.se-technology.com/wig/index.php I used to have one pic showing a WIG hovercraft about 10 feet above the ground doing a "hop"....bet it felt like a hundred feet to the operator though! WIG hovercraft appear to have many problems....airborne stability for one....another, dealing with mirror contacts with ground or water (waves) without it turning into something resembling that bad landing they used to show at the begining of the 6 million dollar man episodes.... Another problem is variation of weight.....you need to make sure you CANT get truelly "aircraft" airborne at minimum load, yet you still want to be a decent height above the surface at maximum load....so it may make more sense to NOT make the thing as light as possible as you would an aircraft....so that the percentage difference between min load and max load is significantly smaller than that of a true typical aircraft.... which aint neccessarily bad...becuase if I built one of those suckers I'd put in a heavy duty roll cage that protected me, my neck, and ensured that I floated upright and intact when (not if) I wrecked the thing and it ripped apart in spectacular fashion! Sure, that way the drag is more than if you made it as light as possible, BUT I bet you would still be going alot faster with much less energy than you would in an equivalent boat! And the ride would be smoother...at least until you crashed.... The CD reduction is .8 at height = .25 wing size, .6 at .15, and .5 at .10 the wing size...where IIRC size = chord...though it could be span....and at height above ground effect CD = 1.0 So you can see you need to get pretty close to the ground for the WIG effect to help much... I'll email you the graph I have take care Blll |
#5
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Let me make a clarification to my original post:
The machine that I'm considering is NOT GOING TO OPERATE FROM/OVER WATER. It is not a flying-boat / hydroplane / Skycar / UFO thingie. It was designed as a land-based aircraft and looks something like an untralight. It had wheeled landing gear, wings, control surfaces, engine & prop, etc. However, it never flew very well or very far... if it ever flew at all. There is no photographic proof that it ever could or did leave the ground. Eyewitness reports lead me to believe that it never flew out of ground effect, and never flew more than a few hundred yards before being retired. Now here's the rub: all of the flying Wright 1903 Flyer replacas that I know of are considered (and are) true aircraft, thus requiring a PPL, N-numbers, etc. They rely on sound aerodyamic principles and would be capable of flying for miles at altitudes in excess of 10' AGL, given a very good pilot. The machine that I'm researching does not benefit from any sort of aerodynamic wing design. Its ribs are flat. If it flew, it was because large ammounts of power were used to shove it into the air for a few hundred feet. SO, is there a difference in the eyes of the FAA? And if so, what part of FAR would govern such a machine? I realize this is a very unusual question, thanks for your help. Harry |
#6
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SO, is there a difference in the eyes of the FAA? And if so, what part of
FAR would govern such a machine? I realize this is a very unusual question, thanks for your help. Harry If it doesnt fly why should the FAA give a hoot? The FAA doesnt regulate hovercraft or airboats and those use airprops for forward propulsion... Of course I dont know diddly about FAA regs either... I hope you have some smoothhhh, softffff ground and that you are going pretty darn slow when you do your flight tests at 3 ft AGL.... take care Blll |
#7
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Bill,
I was hoping that the FAA already had a rule or subsection on the books governing WIG's. That way I could redesign the aircraft I'm considering so that it would meet the rule. Unfortunately, it looks like the FAA has never addressed this subject. However, they were adament about regulating ALL of the reproduction Wright Flyers built last year. Even though the flight envelope of those craft are very similar to the one I'm considering. Since I do not currently have a PPL, clasifing the aircraft experimental is not really an option. It might still be possible to go Part 103, but that won't be easy. Right now my calculations put the plane at least 100 lbs. overweight. This is the case for most turn-of-the-century aircraft. They are too slow and primative to fly like modern airplanes, yet too heavy to be considered ultralights. So far, I've managed to avoid the FAA problem by building kites and gliders. But having to wing-walk / push my glider 7 miles around an airfield last year convinced me that I want power on the next plane I build. If anybody does happen to find an FAA subsection that specifically mentions WIG's, please let me know. Thanks for your input, Harry |
#8
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Harry...
You might want to contact the FAA directly to get their scoop on it..and contacting the Coast Guard as well....yes I know you are NOT going to use it over water....BUT since there is air above BOTH land and water the Coast Guard MIGHT happen to know when the FAA considers it it a plane rather than a boat....or at least when the Coast Guard considers it a boat or WIG vehicle rather than a plane..... Again my limited understanding is it aint a plane if it cant get out of ground effect....you just better be darn sure it CANT to keep you outa of trouble..... also, might help to go ask these questions over at one of the hovercraft forum since some of those folks appear to be interested in WIGs....there might even be some wig forum somewhere that I dont know about... keep us informed..at least I know I am interested.... take care Blll |
#9
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Frey
Let me ask a stupid question. First I have read the thread to date. If your vehicle won't be able to fly out of ground effect (and you don't plan on flying over water) where will you fly it??? I don't think ground effect goes up and over obstructions (houses, trees, water towers. electrical power lines, etc). Where would you use the vehicle and how? Fly point to point around the airport vs using a golf cart? Big John On 01 Apr 2004 22:57:17 GMT, (Wright1902Glider) wrote: Does anyone here know if / what-section-of FAR rules govern the operation of "ground effect" vehicles? Specifically, how high can a machine fly AGL before its technically classified as an aircraft and not a hovercraft, hydroplane-boat, Ecronoplan, etc.? Is there a loophole for a powered airplane that can't climb to more than 5' AGL? Second question: If a machine has tricycle gear with nosewheel steering, wings and 3-axis control, and is solely propelled by thrust from an engine/propeller, BUT CANNOT FLY, how is it classified? Trike motorcycle? NOTE: Both of these questions relate to a proposed machine that will weigh more than 254lbs dry, i.e. not Part 103 legal. Serious responses please. I'm looking to find and verify a specific FAR rule, as the correct answer to this question is critical for legal, operational, and insurance purposes. Thanks, Harry Frey Wright Brothers Enterprises |
#10
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"Big John" wrote in message ... Frey Let me ask a stupid question. First I have read the thread to date. If your vehicle won't be able to fly out of ground effect (and you don't plan on flying over water) where will you fly it??? I don't think ground effect goes up and over obstructions (houses, trees, water towers. electrical power lines, etc). We've got these large skinny areas of flat surface connecting major metropolitan areas. |
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