Completing the Non-precision approach as a Visual Approach

"Newps" wrote in message
news:WMrub.236755$Tr4.696922@attbi_s03...


Bob Gardner wrote:

When you are cleared for the VOR-A you are expected to fly the
profile....fly at the MDA and not a foot lower to the missed approach
point
or until you see the runway environment as defined in 91.175. When you
see
the airport, you should real quick ask for a contact approach...then you
can
follow ground reference and altitude is not a factor.

Ah, bull****. He had the runway in sight, descended and landed. What's
the problem?

It depends on the missing information in the phrase:

I descend 166 feet and am able to remain just under the cloud deck

John, if this had actually happened, could you see the runway all the time
during that descent?

-- David Brooks

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
"Newps" wrote in message
news:WMrub.236755$Tr4.696922@attbi_s03...


Bob Gardner wrote:

When you are cleared for the VOR-A you are expected to fly the
profile....fly at the MDA and not a foot lower to the missed approach
point
or until you see the runway environment as defined in 91.175. When you
see
the airport, you should real quick ask for a contact approach...then
you
can
follow ground reference and altitude is not a factor.

Ah, bull****. He had the runway in sight, descended and landed. What's
the problem?

It depends on the missing information in the phrase:

I descend 166 feet and am able to remain just under the cloud deck

John, if this had actually happened, could you see the runway all the time
during that descent?


Yes i did. And then flew the pattern and landed, with the runway clearly in
sight at all times.

Thanks!
John

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:bphub.176041$9E1.917544@attbi_s52...
When you are cleared for the VOR-A you are expected to fly the
profile....fly at the MDA and not a foot lower to the missed approach
point
or until you see the runway environment as defined in 91.175.

So, once I saw the runway environment (and kept it in sight), I was ok to
descend a hundred feet, fly a couple more miles, fly the pattern, and land,
right?

When you see
the airport, you should real quick ask for a contact approach...then you
can
follow ground reference and altitude is not a factor.


Or (if I had been in class G, below 700' agl) cancel IFR "real quick"? Does
ATC have to hear me and respond, or is my call "into the blind" sufficient?


Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:bphub.176041$9E1.917544@attbi_s52...
When you are cleared for the VOR-A you are expected to fly the
profile....fly at the MDA and not a foot lower to the missed approach
point
or until you see the runway environment as defined in 91.175.

So, once I saw the runway environment (and kept it in sight), I was ok to
descend a hundred feet, fly a couple more miles, fly the pattern, and
land,
right?

Well, there is one little thing in 91.175:
at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers

Of course the word normal has to be interpreted. If scud-running is a normal
maneuver for you, then it was probably OK. Er, would have been OK, if it had
happened. I suspect the phrase is intended to discourage abnormally
aggressive descent and/or turns.

-- David Brooks

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

So, once I saw the runway environment (and kept it in sight), I was ok to
descend a hundred feet, fly a couple more miles, fly the pattern, and
land,
right?


Right.



Or (if I had been in class G, below 700' agl) cancel IFR "real quick"?
Does
ATC have to hear me and respond, or is my call "into the blind"
sufficient?


If you have the runway in sight you don't need to cancel or request a
contact approach.

If you have the runway in sight you don't need to cancel or request a
contact approach

Steve,

If this ap is a non-towered ap then he would have been allowed to change
freq to CTAF once cleared for the approach. Once he was assured a landing
or after he was on the ground I think he'd have to tune back to approach
control and cancel IFR with ATC.

Kobra

"Kobra" wrote in message
...

If this ap is a non-towered ap then he would have been allowed to change
freq to CTAF once cleared for the approach. Once he was assured a landing
or after he was on the ground I think he'd have to tune back to approach
control and cancel IFR with ATC.


Or via phone call to FSS, but what's your point?

I thought the whole reason for a steep-as-reasonable descent profile during
a non-precision approach was so that if the airport/runway environment is in
sight before the MAP, you can take advantage of it and land. If you are
forced to fly not a foot lower to the missed, then therefore you can not
take advantage of the early sighting of the airport. In other words, after
arriving at the MDA and you have the runway environment in sight AND you see
you're about to enter the cloud bases again, then you therefore "must" enter
the cloud bases because you're not at the MAP yet? Then the only way to
descend is to request and get cleared for a Contact Approach?

I may be misunderstanding the situation but that's how I read your
explanation. It would seem to me that Contact Approaches would be much more
common than they are and I'd read about them more often in the various IFR
mags that I read.

Regards,

Marco


"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:bphub.176041$9E1.917544@attbi_s52...
When you are cleared for the VOR-A you are expected to fly the
profile....fly at the MDA and not a foot lower to the missed approach
point
or until you see the runway environment as defined in 91.175. When you see
the airport, you should real quick ask for a contact approach...then you
can
follow ground reference and altitude is not a factor.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" wrote in message
.. .
I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766
AGL"),
mostly in a 700 foot overcast. Through a break in the clouds I clearly
see
the airport-- the visibility is about 7 miles.

I descend 166 feet and am able to remain just under the cloud deck for
the
final three miles, fly the right hand pattern for runway 14 at 600 AGL,
and
land.

Was my descent to about 600 AGL (a) illegal because of 91.175c and/or
some
other FAR, or (b) legal because I have now in effect "converted" to a
visual
approach and/or am now in uncontrolled airspace (1 mile vis and clear
of
clouds).

Mind you I'm not saying I did this last Tuesday, but I might have
thought
about it if the conditions had been just so.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ







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"Marco Leon" mleon(at)optonline.net wrote in message
...

I thought the whole reason for a steep-as-reasonable descent profile during
a non-precision approach was so that if the airport/runway environment is
in
sight before the MAP, you can take advantage of it and land. If you are
forced to fly not a foot lower to the missed, then therefore you can not
take advantage of the early sighting of the airport. In other words, after
arriving at the MDA and you have the runway environment in sight AND you
see
you're about to enter the cloud bases again, then you therefore "must"
enter
the cloud bases because you're not at the MAP yet?


No, you may descend below the MDA upon sighting the runway environment.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ...

No, you may descend below the MDA upon sighting the runway environment.

That's what I thought and was instructed to do.



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