Winch Experts wanted

"Andreas Maurer" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 16:42:31 -0700, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:


Winches are VERY profitable. The operational cost is less than $2US per
launch and most people will find $10 is a reasonable launch fee. That's
a
500% profit with a volunteer crew in a club setting. The Return On
Investment for a $30,000 winch is just 63 operating days figuring an
average
of 60 launches a day. A dual drum winch in a training environment can do
a
LOT more than 60 launches a day.

After the club has its ROI it can buy a new glider every year with the
profits. That's the REAL secret of how those European clubs own all that
nice glass. They put their money into gliders instead of air tow fees.

Just one question, Bill:
Why do you set the price for a winch launch that high?


My point is that a fairly large sum can be spent on a winch and recovered
quickly by charging modest launch fees. After the winch is paid off, the
launch fee can be set to whatever the club/operator wants.

Many in the US are paying $40+ for an air tow. Charging a quarter of that
for the same altitude is a very attractive proposition for the glider pilot.
Reducing the price below $10 US for selected groups like students is a very
good idea. The trick is setting the launch fee to a win-win value for all
concerned. The fees should maintain the winch and provide a cash flow to
expand the glider fleet.

This is impossible with a tow plane which sucks money from the club treasury
and contributes nothing back to maintain or expand the club glider fleet.

Bill Daniels

John Galloway wrote:

Skylaunch already have developed, trouble-shot and
built 30 or so examples of the big V8 petrol/LPG twin
drum, controlled launch power winch design you seem
to be re-inventing. It sems sensible to use this experience
so why not just buy one, investigate building them
under licence, get a kit from them, or get Mike Grove's
advice on a consultancy basis?

The Skylaunch sounds like a great machine. However I have never seen
one. I fly in South Africa and there are none in this part of the
world. I doubt that there is a club in SA that could afford one.

I see from their web site that they will sell a guillotine for about
UKP2000. However you can buy a complete reconditioned crate V8 engine
for half that price.

The Supacat made a profit of £29,000 last
year and £16,000 in 2002

Our club launches mainly by aerotow. We winch once every two weeks.
However even if all of our training was by winch launch I estimate our
gross winch revenue would be about USD 10 000 per year - no where near
enough to buy a Skylaunch.

There must be must be a dozen clubs operating winches in this country.
Most of them have been home made, or home modified. Many man hours have
gone into building these machines. All work to a greater or lesser
extent but none are perfect.

If the next intrepid builder had access to the detailed plans of a
proven winch, it could halve his build time and avoid the inevitable
"fix up the problems" project which follows each "winch construction
project".

The end result may also just be a bit more efficient, easier to operate
and safer and that would mean more pilots flying gliders.

Come and join us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/ we would
like to learn from your experiences with Supercat's and Skylaunches.

Ian

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:28:47 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

Well i have just checked the tarifs at Bunno-Bonnevaux, and i can see
that a complete membership (including unlimited number of flying hours)
is about 1700 euros per year. This is of course a very good club,
equipped with fine glass gliders, and which uses paid employees, so
providing a hassle free solution.

Yes - the region around Paris is an extremely expensive area
concerning gliding from what I heard about French clubs.
Paid employees are what makes gliding extremely expensive - it's a
question of taste if you want to pay the price for the hazzle-free
operation.
Soissons is a lot better - but they don't offer paid employees.

I am still convinced that the cost of gliders is
number one factor for the sport problems.

Hmmm... to be honest, I doubt this statement.
In my club I pay about $400 per year (including anything, even some
aerotows) and get 2*DG-300, ASW-24, ASW-27, ASK-21, DG-505, Dimona,
Remorqeur and a Ka-8. Duo Discus from next year on. We also own our
airfield (but will have to keep on paying for it till 2013).



Bye
Andreas

At the Mynd being a hill-top site does not always help with soaring, and
height gain is often just as important as at a flat site.

When using the retrieve winch a cable parachute is not used, and any height
lost because of the retrieve winch wire is considered well worth while
because of the rapid launch rate.

The retrieve winch is very easy to drive. The main winch is more difficult
to drive than with a cable parachute system, the critical bit is immediately
after the cable comes off the glider, when the main cable has to be kept
from going slack and then the power cut as the retrieve cable starts to
pull.

At the Long Mynd almost all the driving is by professionals who also
maintain the equipment. There is a very short list of amateurs who have
been trained to drive. Very little aerotowing is done, and practically
none mid-week when gliding courses are run.

There are two problems which make it very difficult or impossible for most
sites to use a retrieve winch.

1./ There is always a wire between the glider and the retrieve winch, so
there must be no risk whatever of a glider (or aircraft) flying or landing
between the two winches at any time when a launch is in progress.

2./ Once the launch has started the cable and ironmongery which links the
two cables is going to drop without being restrained by a cable parachute.
There must be no risk whatever of any person or object being underneath when
it drops; and if it drops onto a runway or taxiway it will almost certainly
be damaged.

If you look at "Gliding and Motorgliding International"
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/ , go to "Photos" and enter the word Mynd in
the search facility, you will find three photos of a K21 being launched on
the Mynd system. In the photo captioned "our oldest K21" you can see the
retrieve cable in the right lower part of the picture.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news

"Dave Martin" wrote in message
news:c3rjqe$2bh8m7
The Long Mynd use a retrieve winch which with a good
crew is very efficient and can work with a single drum
winch.

Dave


A visit to Long Mynd is on my "must do" list.

It has been my impression that while a retrieve winch works well when
launching from a ridge top where the height gained in the winch launch is
unimportant, lifting the retrieve wire is a hindrance when launching from
flatland where every foot of release height is very important.

What I don't know is how much hindrance. Do you think a retrieve winch
would be a good idea with 6000 feet of winch cable? If so, what is the
longest wire where a retrieve winch is practical?

Bill Daniels

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:56:44 -0700, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:

My point is that a fairly large sum can be spent on a winch and recovered
quickly by charging modest launch fees. After the winch is paid off, the
launch fee can be set to whatever the club/operator wants.

That sounds like a good idea.

Many in the US are paying $40+ for an air tow. Charging a quarter of that
for the same altitude is a very attractive proposition for the glider pilot.

Indeed it is - and with some special low rate for student pilots (or
even a flat rate) I am sure you'll find it easier to attract very
young members without own income.

The trick is setting the launch fee to a win-win value for all
concerned. The fees should maintain the winch and provide a cash flow to
expand the glider fleet.

There are many possible solutions - but using a winch as primary
launch method is always a win-win situation for a club. I am a great
supporter of the flat rate which proved to be extremely successful in
my club (but didn't work at all in others).


This is impossible with a tow plane which sucks money from the club treasury
and contributes nothing back to maintain or expand the club glider fleet.

Not only that - but it's quite a difference if I can hop into the
glider whenever I like and take a flight without any cost (winch
launch with a flat rate) or if the first thing I think of when
thinking about a flight is the substantial aerotow bill.
I think the latter is a major hurdle for young members.




Bye
Andreas

I'm gonna yeild to the folks who seem to think the electric
isn't much more efficient enough to make the other benefits
a good value for the money.

So gas or diesel it is. Sorry I can't join you...yahoo
is a proprietary BB, not a newsgroup. trn won't post there,
and my life's complicated enough otherwise (passwords,
usernames, pages loading, etc.)

It sounds like great fun though. Please post back here
occasionally to tell of progress...and if I get any experimental
results from electric motors, I'll let you know too

Bill Daniels wrote:
"Littleboy" wrote in message Costs new, to

1) VFD, Square D Altivar 66 drive, 460v, 100HP, well optioned $12,000
2) AC Motor, 460v, 100HP general purpose, totally enclosed $4,000
2a)AC Motor, 460v, 100HP inverter duty, totally enclosed $6,000

100 HP ain't gonna do it. We need 250 HP anyway to equal a 350 - 400 HP
Diesel. 250 HP is going to be $20,000 and the frequency converter control
box is going to be another $15,000. When I went through this, I stopped
counting at about $60,000 just for the power source. Diesel is going to be
a lot cheaper I think.
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Mark James Boyd wrote:
So gas or diesel it is. Sorry I can't join you...yahoo
is a proprietary BB, not a newsgroup. trn won't post there,
and my life's complicated enough otherwise (passwords,
usernames, pages loading, etc.)

You don't need to be a member of Yahoo to join the mailing list, just
send an email to . The archives
are also public, so you can look at them without having a membership.

Marc

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message ...
"Dave Martin" wrote in message
news:c3rjqe$2bh8m7
The Long Mynd use a retrieve winch which with a good
crew is very efficient and can work with a single drum
winch.

Dave



A visit to Long Mynd is on my "must do" list.

It has been my impression that while a retrieve winch works well when
launching from a ridge top where the height gained in the winch launch is
unimportant, lifting the retrieve wire is a hindrance when launching from
flatland where every foot of release height is very important.

What I don't know is how much hindrance. Do you think a retrieve winch
would be a good idea with 6000 feet of winch cable? If so, what is the
longest wire where a retrieve winch is practical?

Bill Daniels



Hi Bill!

I checked out the German Sky Launch Site, and found a nice Cable
retrieve winch there, with a lot of info. Also, they offer kits, for
their winches that go down to half the price of a complete one, if I
remember correctly. Everyone can check the prices even if not familiar
with the language...

I canot figure out why these people want to re invent the wheel, when
all those beautiful winches can be bought for less than the price of a
glider?.....Now when flying season starts. Possibly the southern
hemisphere, freight would be high?

The retrieve winch uses a 2.5 mm cable, there seems to be no limit to
the lenght of either cable.....Bill. The loss they claim, is not more
than 2 % in hight. Will have to recheck that. The way I see it, with
the new ropes, it should not be a problem at all. The shute is not
neccesary with that application, which evens things out.

The retrieve winch seems to be not used much yet in Germany, possibly
because they somehow done well without it and are slow to change? I
know a soaring site in Germany, where they sometimes have 3 winches
next to each other. A retrieve winch could make this operation look
much better!

Rather than starting to tinker with winch building, I would suggest
for some teams to visit those winch manufacturers and get demos,
including Retrieve winches. As I said before. The problems in winch
operations are not the winches alone, but the know how in using them!

In addition to that, again, like I said before is the real estate!
Winches can hardly be used on public airports, possibly with a
retrieve winch? With winch operations, have to come relatively (long
runway) private gliderports.

Wonder whether Tonapah or Ely would alow a winch operation? Possibly
somone will build a hotel and buy the winching equipment......and have
a going business?

Think Up!

Dieter Bibbig
Gliders Of Aspen

soarski wrote:
I canot figure out why these people want to re invent the wheel, when
all those beautiful winches can be bought for less than the price of a
glider?.....Now when flying season starts. Possibly the southern
hemisphere, freight would be high?

That beautiful Skylaunch III kit will cost close to $60,000 once you add
an engine, shipping, and the miscellaneous parts needed to complete it.
I doubt there are more than one or two clubs or commercial
gliderports in the US that could justify that kind of expenditure, given
their current levels of operation.

This is a bootstrapping problem. Until one can prove there is a viable
market for proper winch operations in this country, no one is going to
risk a large amount of capital to find out. This isn't about cloning a
Skylaunch, it is about finding a way to build a decent quality winch for
a cost, in time and money, that a small group of people or a club would
be willing to risk.

If we ever get to the point where there are several US gliderports doing
100+ winch launches a weekend, then you'll no doubt start seeing
Skylaunches arrive on this shore.

In addition to that, again, like I said before is the real estate!
Winches can hardly be used on public airports, possibly with a
retrieve winch? With winch operations, have to come relatively (long
runway) private gliderports.

Yes, I know of large underutilized public and private airports in
California and Nevada where we would be allowed (and in some cases
encouraged) to winch launch. Most of the private gliderports in the
area would also likely be willing to give it a try.

The point is to try to grow the sport by cutting the cost of training
(probably by half), adding an element of excitement, and being able to
operate closer to urban areas without generating noise complaints.
Maybe it will work, maybe it won't...

Marc

Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:28:47 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

Well i have just checked the tarifs at Bunno-Bonnevaux, and i can see
that a complete membership (including unlimited number of flying hours)
is about 1700 euros per year. This is of course a very good club,
equipped with fine glass gliders, and which uses paid employees, so
providing a hassle free solution.

Yes - the region around Paris is an extremely expensive area
concerning gliding from what I heard about French clubs.
Paid employees are what makes gliding extremely expensive - it's a
question of taste if you want to pay the price for the hazzle-free
operation.
Soissons is a lot better - but they don't offer paid employees.

I have been a member in Buno-Bonnevaux, which has paid employees
and in Moret sur Loing, which doesn't, and
- the price difference was not very significative
- the hassle difference was extremely significative
In particular, in clubs without paid employees, invariably a small
pool of people take control of the club and use their power to
harass other members. In view of my experience i would prefer clubs
with good employees any day.
By the way i have also checked the tarifs at Challes les Eaux on the
web, and i am not sure it is really cheaper than the tarifs i mentioned
when you consider that at Buno you don't pay anything for the use
of gliders, while at Challes you pay a fair amount of money for each
hour you fly. Here also, i think that paying for the number of hours you
fly is a very bad thing that discourages getting proficient in the
sport. As for Soisson, the meteorological conditions in the north of
Paris are far worse than in the south. From Buno or Moret you can reach
easily the Loire river, and from here do wonderful cross country.
Since this is a very flat region with wide fields it is extremely easy
to land "aux vaches", while car retreives are also fast and without
problem. It is not without a reason that Buno has long been one of the
biggest clubs in France, with some of the Alp clubs.



--

Michel TALON