Flying Thru Congested Areas

Jeff, Good advice, thanks. But I am curious about your experience that
you do not get vectored when you are VFR. If I ask for flight following
from center (or approach), I believe I have experienced being vectored
even though I was VFR. Perhaps I recall incorrectly. I wonder if a
controller-type person can enlighten us on the rules about vectoring VFR
traffic under flight following.

-Sami

Jeff wrote:
Hey Sami
If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
the habit of just flying over their class B VFR. Just when your near their
airspace, you call approach and let them know who you are and where your
going so that they know and can advise you of traffic conflicts.
If your IFR then they can vector you around, if your VFR then they wont
vector you, they will vector the IFR traffic around you. Another thing I
got used to doing when flying around the phoenix area, I found oout they
like to send me way down south then turn me up. I dont fly IFR into
phoenix anymore unless I really have to.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:


I am planning a long cross country where I am trying to minmiize the
time the trip will take (while, of course, trying to be as safe as
possible). The shortest route would take me straight over the top of
Detroit and Clevland and Pittsburg (I am flying from Central Wisconsin
to Washington D.C. to be specific). Perhaps this is a no brainer, but
that does not sound like a particularly good route to me, just because
of the congrestion in these spaces. The congestion (a) increases the
likelihood of vectoring delays, and (b) decreases my safety somewhat
because the probability of a collision is somewhat higher (although,
still quite small, I realize).

If I pick a route to the south, I could avoid all of these areas by
about 30 miles, but it adds about 60-70 miles to my trip. Even at 30
miles south, I imagine the congestion will be significant. In fact, a
controller once implied that it is often better to go straight across
the top of a major airport because there are fewer airplanes in
transition there (descending for approach, or climbing for departure).

So, what do you folks suggest? Thanks in advance for you advice.

-Sami
N2057M
Piper Turbo Arrow III

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

So, would it be poor form to get an ifr clearance to get above whatever
cloud layer at your departure airport....fly VFR when you are on
top....then pickup an on-the-fly IFR again 100 miles or so before your
destinatation airport if you needed to descend back down through a cloud
layer?


It's poor form if you don't file the flight plans before requesting the IFR
clearances, otherwise no problem.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ...
Jeff, Good advice, thanks. But I am curious about your experience that
you do not get vectored when you are VFR.

If you're inside a class B, you can get vectored. Outside, it's not supposed
to be one of their options.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

But I am curious about your experience that
you do not get vectored when you are VFR. If I ask for flight following
from center (or approach), I believe I have experienced being vectored
even though I was VFR. Perhaps I recall incorrectly. I wonder if a
controller-type person can enlighten us on the rules about vectoring VFR
traffic under flight following.


ATC separates VFR aircraft in Class B and Class C airspace, in the outer
area associated with Class C airspace, and in TRSAs. In those areas it is
entirely proper for ATC to vector VFR aircraft. Outside of that airspace
VFR aircraft are vectored only by request.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

So, would it be poor form to get an ifr clearance to get above whatever
cloud layer at your departure airport....fly VFR when you are on
top....then pickup an on-the-fly IFR again 100 miles or so before your
destinatation airport if you needed to descend back down through a cloud
layer?


It's poor form if you don't file the flight plans before requesting the
IFR
clearances, otherwise no problem.



He would need two flight plans for this, right? One to get up, one to get
back down.

If instead, he requested VFR-on-top, do you think he could generally get
the routing he wanted? I mean what would ATC generally do with a request
like "N123 request VFR-on-top 7500 direct XYZ VOR, otherwise I'd like to
cancel IFR and request VFR advisories".

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

"O. Sami Saydjari"
I'm not familiar with this route but did you do a great circle route
*and*
plot the actual great circle route on the chart to determine the
'conflicts'? I assume you are using a GPS to fly and it will follow the
great circle route using direct routing but it is not always obvious
what
that line looks like on the chart unless you plot a few points. A fuel
or
rest stop can change the entire equation once fuel prices are factored
in.

Well, I used the route planning software available at the duats website.
I picked the low-level victor airway that it recommended....and thats
the one that had the conflicts. How does one directly find the great
circle route during flight planning (I assume my GPS uses great cricle
when it does a direct-to course)? I figured I would be better off on
victor airways as a matter of extra safety, in case my GPS fails...but I
am open to be talked out of that viewpoint.

I use the AOPA flight planner and I'm not sure what engine it uses for
determining routes. Might be DUATS. In any case, I can select GPS direct
routing which makes a great circle route (or something close) or I can
select low level victor airway routing. If you are using a GPS for
navigation, there's little reason to take the victor routing unless ATC
'demands' it as they tend to do around the Wash DC area for example. I
assume your duats flight planner will plan a direct route and supply
waypoints that can be plotted so that you can see what it looks like on a
chart.

Map projections do not result in the shortest real distance between 2 points
being a straight line on the chart. Sometimes the difference is enough to
be surprising. For example, when I fly to Florida from the Raleigh area, I
have to fly around a sizeable restricted area near Fayetteville. The map
tells me to fly east of the area. A more careful examination of the great
circle route tells me to fly west. The difference is not that great but it
causes me to choose a different refueling stop for my slow, short legged
bird.

I have been out in the middle of no where several times on IFR flight plans and
been told to "traffic at your XX O'clock, not talking to him, turn xxx degrees."

Also been given vectors way the hell away from my flight path and was even asked
if I could climb to 14,000 ft to avoid VFR traffic that was passing through a
pass.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

you have never been vectored around VFR traffic before?
Happens to me everytime I file IFR.


That's fine, as long as it's in airspace in which ATC has the responsibility
to separate VFR aircraft from IFR aircraft and thus the authority to
initiate vectors for separation. But we're not talking about such airspace.
Of course, an aircraft can always request such vectors.

When I go VFR, I dont get vectored like on an IFR flight plan, but I do get
traffic advisories. thats why your able to just fly over the class B, because
they cant tell you to turn somewhere else like they can if your IFR. Its good to
talk to approach when your flying over their airspace tho just so they can talk
to you if they need to.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

Jeff, Good advice, thanks. But I am curious about your experience that
you do not get vectored when you are VFR. If I ask for flight following
from center (or approach), I believe I have experienced being vectored
even though I was VFR. Perhaps I recall incorrectly. I wonder if a
controller-type person can enlighten us on the rules about vectoring VFR
traffic under flight following.

-Sami

Jeff wrote:
Hey Sami
If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
the habit of just flying over their class B VFR. Just when your near their
airspace, you call approach and let them know who you are and where your
going so that they know and can advise you of traffic conflicts.
If your IFR then they can vector you around, if your VFR then they wont
vector you, they will vector the IFR traffic around you. Another thing I
got used to doing when flying around the phoenix area, I found oout they
like to send me way down south then turn me up. I dont fly IFR into
phoenix anymore unless I really have to.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:


I am planning a long cross country where I am trying to minmiize the
time the trip will take (while, of course, trying to be as safe as
possible). The shortest route would take me straight over the top of
Detroit and Clevland and Pittsburg (I am flying from Central Wisconsin
to Washington D.C. to be specific). Perhaps this is a no brainer, but
that does not sound like a particularly good route to me, just because
of the congrestion in these spaces. The congestion (a) increases the
likelihood of vectoring delays, and (b) decreases my safety somewhat
because the probability of a collision is somewhat higher (although,
still quite small, I realize).

If I pick a route to the south, I could avoid all of these areas by
about 30 miles, but it adds about 60-70 miles to my trip. Even at 30
miles south, I imagine the congestion will be significant. In fact, a
controller once implied that it is often better to go straight across
the top of a major airport because there are fewer airplanes in
transition there (descending for approach, or climbing for departure).

So, what do you folks suggest? Thanks in advance for you advice.

-Sami
N2057M
Piper Turbo Arrow III

right, you wont get vectors but you will get traffic advisories and its up to
you to make sure you dont hit anything.
Of course you can also say "negative contact, request vectors around traffic"
when you get an advisory that may be conflicting with your path.

but in general, jump up above the class B and set a direct course to where
your going - just watch out for any restricted areas - for those you can ask
center if its active.


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:ATC separates VFR aircraft in Class B and Class C
airspace, in the outer

area associated with Class C airspace, and in TRSAs. In those areas it is
entirely proper for ATC to vector VFR aircraft. Outside of that airspace
VFR aircraft are vectored only by request.

Every so often in the Boston area when I'm flight following with approach
control in class E they'll throw a vector my way, then a minute or two later
say "resume own navigation." Happens maybe one in ten flights. I've always
igured it's just good manners to comply without asking why so long as it
doesn't put you somewhere you don't want to be.

-cwk.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

But I am curious about your experience that
you do not get vectored when you are VFR. If I ask for flight following
from center (or approach), I believe I have experienced being vectored
even though I was VFR. Perhaps I recall incorrectly. I wonder if a
controller-type person can enlighten us on the rules about vectoring VFR
traffic under flight following.


ATC separates VFR aircraft in Class B and Class C airspace, in the outer
area associated with Class C airspace, and in TRSAs. In those areas it is
entirely proper for ATC to vector VFR aircraft. Outside of that airspace
VFR aircraft are vectored only by request.