Possibly the stupidest idea ever...

"Bill Denton" wrote:

Sorry, but you are just totally wrong!

Every insurance policy I have ever read has a section called something like
"Limitations And Exclusions". It's a list of activities that if engaged in,
the insurance policy is null and void; they will not pay.

Bill, reread Kyle's post. I understood his "something not prohibited
by their insurance" as meaning that it was not in the "limitations and
Exclusions" section. And such exclusions cannot just be "the insured
did something dumb", or carriers would never pay.

And in the GA
world, it will frequently include such things as aerobatics and formation
flying.
If it does, then it would not be the case that Kyle is talking about.
I doubt that he would suggest that the carrier would have to pay off
if the pilot were doing something excluded in the policy, which is why
he said what he did.

And I don't know who you think it is that decides whether an insurance
company pays a claim or not, but it is, in fact, the insurance company. If
you think they wrongly refused to pay you can sue them and take them to
court, but you will probably lose.
Your state insurance commissioner would be a better first step. You
will probably lose if you are doing something prohibited in the
policy, but not if the claim should be paid.

And what do you think happens if you are judged at fault in an accident and
your insurance doesn't pay? In most jurisdictions the injured party can take
your house, your car(s), your business (if you have one), and they can place
a judgment on your wages. How long do you think it would take you to pay off
five or ten million dollars?

And just because something is legal doesn't mean your insuror has to pay if
you found liable in an accident.
Absolutely. that's why the phrase "not prohibited under your insurance
policy" is key.

And given the judgment you've shown in this post, "what YOU deem safe"
scares the **** out of me.
I fail to see where he has shown poor judgement. But the person who
proposed to fly formation w/o training certainly did show poor
judgement.


"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
Let's see... Pilots are doing something legal, something not prohibited by
their insurance, and the insurance company has the authority to decide
whether or not to pay if there is a claim? Nope. The insurance pays.
Usually, they pay even if the pilot(s) were doing something illegal or
stupid.

Don't let fear of insurance companies prohibit you from doing things that
are legal and that you deem safe.

KB


"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Maybe so, but if something goes wrong, it's the insurance company that
decides if they're going to pay for it...



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
I hate when people say "check with the insurance company". Hell, if
they
had their way, you'd never leave the ground except that one day a
year
when
the visibility was perfect and the winds were forecast to be zero,
and..
oh,
by the way, they'd prefer you have a CFII in the right seat.

Beyond the FAR's and club rules, the PILOT(s) decide when and where
formation flight is appropriate.

KB


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
Check with your insurance company. They almost certainly won't
cover
anything even remotely close to formation flight. Then just tell
this
guy
that the insurance company said "no". That should solve your
problem,
without any need to pass a by-law.


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--
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Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
Check with your insurance company. They almost certainly won't cover
anything even remotely close to formation flight. Then just tell this guy
that the insurance company said "no". That should solve your problem,
without any need to pass a by-law.

Mine says no such thing and I would dump them in a second if they did. I
doubt your suggestion holds water. Correctly flown formation flight is no
more dangerous than any other flight.


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"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Sorry, but you are just totally wrong!

Every insurance policy I have ever read has a section called something
like
"Limitations And Exclusions". It's a list of activities that if engaged
in,
the insurance policy is null and void; they will not pay. And in the GA
world, it will frequently include such things as aerobatics and formation
flying.

Mine says no such thing. The list of exclusions is so small it is nearly
invisible.

You have been reading Usenet for how long, now? And you say THIS is the
stupidest idea, ever?

In a previous article, "C J Campbell" said:
You have been reading Usenet for how long, now? And you say THIS is the
stupidest idea, ever?

Since 1986. And you're right, it's merely the stupidest idea I've heard
proposed for our club. I've heard plenty stupider here.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I have a feeling the auditors haven't looked at crontab yet, but I'm
curious to see if they deem a reference to "yogurt sucking maggots" a
security risk as well. -- Paul Fenwick

How about this...
Have the aircraft depart and orbit an easily recognizable ground
reference about a mile or two from the gravesite. Use altitude
separation to deconflict aircraft according to speed (fastest higher to
slowest low). Brief for the overflight altitude to fly when inbound to
the gravesite.
Someone on the ground with a handheld can call them in at the
appropriate time.
Number the aircraft 1 through n. After they have been told to come in,
as 1 passes over the ground reference, he/she reports "One's inbound."
Two goes next and repeats the procedure, etc., etc.
Have all the aircraft fly in trail, fastest to slowest.
As they pass over the gravesite, they dip a wing in salute, and continue
straight on out for five miles.

Mine says no such thing and I would dump them in a second if they did. I
doubt your suggestion holds water. Correctly flown formation flight is
no
more dangerous than any other flight.

Is this the policy for your personal aircraft or the policy for a flying
club? A policy for a personal plane is likely to be vastly different from a
flying club's policy. I couldn't believe the hoops we have to go through at
our club to deal with the insurance company, but when we went out looking
for other options, there simply wasn't anyone else writing policies for
clubs. To fly our 182, the insurance practically requires you to be the
seventh child of a seventh child and receive an in-person blessing from the
Pope (even if you aren't Catholic).


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Bill,

Read Alexy's post. It does an excellent job of filling in what I left
unsaid, because I thought it was apparent. I'll add a few more notes inside
your post...

KB

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Sorry, but you are just totally wrong!

Every insurance policy I have ever read has a section called something
like
"Limitations And Exclusions". It's a list of activities that if engaged
in,
the insurance policy is null and void; they will not pay. And in the GA
world, it will frequently include such things as aerobatics and formation
flying.

Yep, my note said "something not prohibited by insurance." I think that
covers it, although I've never seen a policy that prohibits formation flight
or aerobatics (presuming the aircraft has the proper certification). If you
have, where/who/what insurance company? I believe the most common exclusion
is related to named pilots or pilots with X time in type. I've seen that one
a few times. Also, my current policy says something to the effect of "not
routinely operated off of unpaved surfaces". That doesn't mean "can't land
on a grass strip", but I'd certainly be outside the restrictions of my
policy if I was based at a grass field. If I was based at a grass strip and
pranged the airplane, it is conceivable that the insurance company could
refuse to pay.



And I don't know who you think it is that decides whether an insurance
company pays a claim or not, but it is, in fact, the insurance company. If
you think they wrongly refused to pay you can sue them and take them to
court, but you will probably lose.

If you drive your car 100 mph on the wrong side of the road and kill
someone, your insurance pays. Airplane insurance is more or less the same.
The two fundamental assumptions (less exclusions) in any insurance contract
are 1) You will try to prevent accidents. 2) If/when you have one, the
insurance company will pay.



And what do you think happens if you are judged at fault in an accident
and
your insurance doesn't pay? In most jurisdictions the injured party can
take
your house, your car(s), your business (if you have one), and they can
place
a judgment on your wages. How long do you think it would take you to pay
off
five or ten million dollars?

Read the NTSB reports. 90% of 'em are pilot error and the insurance company
pays up. Nobody plans to screw up, but it happens. That's why we buy
insurance. Who'd buy insurance if the insurance company wouldn't pay when
someone screws up?



And just because something is legal doesn't mean your insuror has to pay
if
you found liable in an accident.

And given the judgment you've shown in this post, "what YOU deem safe"
scares the **** out of me.

This is getting awfully close to a personal attack, so take it careful... I
deem it safe (or unsafe) every time I open the hangar doors. Sometimes I
fly, sometimes I don't. I'm not averse to cancelling a trip if I don't like
it. I've done it more than a few times. Also, I'm not averse to flying in
MVFR or when the FSS says "VFR not recommended", if I judge it to be safe.
That's the responsiblitiy of the pilot - to use his or her judgement to make
the right choices - go/no go, over/under, 3 point/wheel, slips with/without
flaps. You get the idea. Bottom line, every time you leave the ground in
an airplane, there is some risk. It is up to the pilot to minimize those
risks by flying in a manner and in conditions that are within the
capabilities of the pilot/airplane combination.





"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
Let's see... Pilots are doing something legal, something not prohibited
by
their insurance, and the insurance company has the authority to decide
whether or not to pay if there is a claim? Nope. The insurance pays.
Usually, they pay even if the pilot(s) were doing something illegal or
stupid.

Don't let fear of insurance companies prohibit you from doing things
that
are legal and that you deem safe.

KB

If you are seeing an exclusion like "not routinely operated off of unpaved
surfaces" you are looking at a hull damage policy, not a liability policy.
May I suggest you take a look at your liability policy, as that is what is
being discussed?





"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
Bill,

Read Alexy's post. It does an excellent job of filling in what I left
unsaid, because I thought it was apparent. I'll add a few more notes
inside
your post...

KB

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Sorry, but you are just totally wrong!

Every insurance policy I have ever read has a section called something
like
"Limitations And Exclusions". It's a list of activities that if engaged
in,
the insurance policy is null and void; they will not pay. And in the GA
world, it will frequently include such things as aerobatics and
formation
flying.

Yep, my note said "something not prohibited by insurance." I think that
covers it, although I've never seen a policy that prohibits formation
flight
or aerobatics (presuming the aircraft has the proper certification). If
you
have, where/who/what insurance company? I believe the most common
exclusion
is related to named pilots or pilots with X time in type. I've seen that
one
a few times. Also, my current policy says something to the effect of "not
routinely operated off of unpaved surfaces". That doesn't mean "can't
land
on a grass strip", but I'd certainly be outside the restrictions of my
policy if I was based at a grass field. If I was based at a grass strip
and
pranged the airplane, it is conceivable that the insurance company could
refuse to pay.



And I don't know who you think it is that decides whether an insurance
company pays a claim or not, but it is, in fact, the insurance company.
If
you think they wrongly refused to pay you can sue them and take them to
court, but you will probably lose.

If you drive your car 100 mph on the wrong side of the road and kill
someone, your insurance pays. Airplane insurance is more or less the same.
The two fundamental assumptions (less exclusions) in any insurance
contract
are 1) You will try to prevent accidents. 2) If/when you have one, the
insurance company will pay.



And what do you think happens if you are judged at fault in an accident
and
your insurance doesn't pay? In most jurisdictions the injured party can
take
your house, your car(s), your business (if you have one), and they can
place
a judgment on your wages. How long do you think it would take you to pay
off
five or ten million dollars?

Read the NTSB reports. 90% of 'em are pilot error and the insurance
company
pays up. Nobody plans to screw up, but it happens. That's why we buy
insurance. Who'd buy insurance if the insurance company wouldn't pay when
someone screws up?



And just because something is legal doesn't mean your insuror has to pay
if
you found liable in an accident.

And given the judgment you've shown in this post, "what YOU deem safe"
scares the **** out of me.

This is getting awfully close to a personal attack, so take it careful...
I
deem it safe (or unsafe) every time I open the hangar doors. Sometimes I
fly, sometimes I don't. I'm not averse to cancelling a trip if I don't
like
it. I've done it more than a few times. Also, I'm not averse to flying in
MVFR or when the FSS says "VFR not recommended", if I judge it to be safe.
That's the responsiblitiy of the pilot - to use his or her judgement to
make
the right choices - go/no go, over/under, 3 point/wheel, slips
with/without
flaps. You get the idea. Bottom line, every time you leave the ground in
an airplane, there is some risk. It is up to the pilot to minimize those
risks by flying in a manner and in conditions that are within the
capabilities of the pilot/airplane combination.





"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
Let's see... Pilots are doing something legal, something not
prohibited
by
their insurance, and the insurance company has the authority to decide
whether or not to pay if there is a claim? Nope. The insurance pays.
Usually, they pay even if the pilot(s) were doing something illegal or
stupid.

Don't let fear of insurance companies prohibit you from doing things
that
are legal and that you deem safe.

KB

Paul Tomblin wrote:

I wonder if we've got time to pass a bylaw expelling anybody who tries
close formation work in club planes?

Take a page from the NY/NJ politicos. At the last minute, claim there *is* such a
bylaw. By the time they can prove there isn't, it'll be too late to do it for the
ceremony! :-)

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.