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Kawa rough landing?



 
 
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  #71  
Old September 19th 19, 12:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Kawa rough landing?

2g to answer your question, I can recover from a 1/2 turn spin within 150ft but my response has to be instinctive and instantaneous, which it has gotten thru lots of practice.
You never answered my querry, when is the last time you practiced spins, spin entry, and recovery? Do you intimately know the subtleties of your birds behavior when super slow? Whens the last time you've taken 10 pattern tows and seen how steep you can approach a landing spot and stop short? Do you know how short you can stop? Do you practice very very minimum energy landings to be able to fly the ragged edges of control when you really need to?

These are things every xc pilot should do yearly and definitely when in a new bird.
  #72  
Old September 19th 19, 12:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Kawa rough landing?

To paraphrase advice from Wolfgang Langewiesche in Stick and Rudder: if *anything* surprising ever happens in a turn immediately unload (i.e aerodynamically) the wing.

IMO it should be ingrained in every pilot's mind that the instant he is surprised during a turn the he should move the stick forward - only after that should he analyse the situation.
  #73  
Old September 19th 19, 12:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Kawa rough landing?

Well said jpg. I forgot that wolfgang quote. Thats more of a lifesaver than any "fly coordinated" mantra. Thanks
Dan
  #74  
Old September 19th 19, 02:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Whisky
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Default Kawa rough landing?

I saw a pilot entering a spin with an ASW20 after an aborted winch launch at 250 ft AGL. Did a full turn before recovery, levelling out and land. Walked away, not a single scratch on the glider.

Speedy and muscle-trained recovery gives you a chance to survive errors. And people do make errors.
  #75  
Old September 19th 19, 04:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Kawa rough landing?

What you say is true, Tom, but not everyone flies fully coordinated at
all times.Â* Being able to recognize the onset of a departure from
controlled flight and taking quick, appropriate action might save a life.

I know what a spin entry feels like as well as a fully developed spin,
and I know how to recover from them.Â* And I try to fly coordinated but
some times it's useful not to, e.g., slipping to reduce altitude, or
skidding slightly in a long winged glider in the final turn to keep that
inside wing developing the same lift as the outside wing.

On 9/18/2019 11:59 PM, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 9:03:08 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Maybe this qualifies as prevention rather than recovery but I practice spins all the time - particularly spin entries (all at altitude of course). If you know how your glider behaves when it departs, can recognize a departure quickly and act promptly I've found it's possible to recover in 1/4 turn or so. Obviously that can vary by glider type and configuration. Even 1/4 turn is too much altitude loss at 150' AGL but maybe not at 350'. A surprise departure is likely to take longer to recognize and respond to than practice but longer still without any practice.

In any case I'd rather have some practice at it than not.

Similarly, I think landing where you are rapidly bleeding energy such as on an uphill field is a good skill and you can work your way up to a reasonable simulation by landing on the flat with increasing deployment of flaps and spoilers - all the way up to full if you're comfortable. Kawa's description of his landing seemed less about obstacles than rapid bleeding of speed before and following a bounce. Hitting a hidden obstacle truly is a "Fate is the Hunter" moment and an inherent hazard of committing to field landings if they aren't cultivated. I've only landed on a steep uphill once and it definitely is something that you could do better with practice.

Here again, I'd rather have some practice at it than not. Every landing is an opportunity to practice something before you have to do it under pressure.

Andy Blackburn
9B


On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 7:45:52 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
It does absolutely no good to practice something you will never use, which is a spin recovery from low altitude. The only solution is prevention - if a particular mistake is going to kill you, you can't do it. Most low altitude spins are due to uncoordinated flight - mostly misuse of the rudder because the pilot fears the visual image he gets by a steep bank.

No amount of landout practice is going to prepare you to landing in a field with unseen obstacles, which is what apparently happened to Kawa. If you push into an area with poor landing options you should not be surprised when things turn out badly.

Tom

Andy,

When you are down low (in the pattern) practice COORDINATED flight - that is what will save your ass, not a low-altitude spin recovery. This is just plain, simple common sense. Pilots, lots of them, who don't do this are getting killed, this is fact. Can you produce a SINGLE pilot who has done such a low altitude save?

Tom


Tom


--
Dan, 5J
  #76  
Old September 19th 19, 04:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Kawa rough landing?

I'll bet he walked directly to the nearest toilet! :-D

On 9/19/2019 7:03 AM, Tango Whisky wrote:
I saw a pilot entering a spin with an ASW20 after an aborted winch launch at 250 ft AGL. Did a full turn before recovery, levelling out and land. Walked away, not a single scratch on the glider.

Speedy and muscle-trained recovery gives you a chance to survive errors. And people do make errors.


--
Dan, 5J
  #77  
Old September 19th 19, 05:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Default Kawa rough landing?

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 8:30:33 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
What you say is true, Tom, but not everyone flies fully coordinated at
all times.Â* Being able to recognize the onset of a departure from
controlled flight and taking quick, appropriate action might save a life.

I know what a spin entry feels like as well as a fully developed spin,
and I know how to recover from them.Â* And I try to fly coordinated but
some times it's useful not to, e.g., slipping to reduce altitude, or
skidding slightly in a long winged glider in the final turn to keep that
inside wing developing the same lift as the outside wing.

On 9/18/2019 11:59 PM, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 9:03:08 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Maybe this qualifies as prevention rather than recovery but I practice spins all the time - particularly spin entries (all at altitude of course).. If you know how your glider behaves when it departs, can recognize a departure quickly and act promptly I've found it's possible to recover in 1/4 turn or so. Obviously that can vary by glider type and configuration. Even 1/4 turn is too much altitude loss at 150' AGL but maybe not at 350'. A surprise departure is likely to take longer to recognize and respond to than practice but longer still without any practice.

In any case I'd rather have some practice at it than not.

Similarly, I think landing where you are rapidly bleeding energy such as on an uphill field is a good skill and you can work your way up to a reasonable simulation by landing on the flat with increasing deployment of flaps and spoilers - all the way up to full if you're comfortable. Kawa's description of his landing seemed less about obstacles than rapid bleeding of speed before and following a bounce. Hitting a hidden obstacle truly is a "Fate is the Hunter" moment and an inherent hazard of committing to field landings if they aren't cultivated. I've only landed on a steep uphill once and it definitely is something that you could do better with practice.

Here again, I'd rather have some practice at it than not. Every landing is an opportunity to practice something before you have to do it under pressure.

Andy Blackburn
9B


On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 7:45:52 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
It does absolutely no good to practice something you will never use, which is a spin recovery from low altitude. The only solution is prevention - if a particular mistake is going to kill you, you can't do it. Most low altitude spins are due to uncoordinated flight - mostly misuse of the rudder because the pilot fears the visual image he gets by a steep bank.

No amount of landout practice is going to prepare you to landing in a field with unseen obstacles, which is what apparently happened to Kawa. If you push into an area with poor landing options you should not be surprised when things turn out badly.

Tom

Andy,

When you are down low (in the pattern) practice COORDINATED flight - that is what will save your ass, not a low-altitude spin recovery. This is just plain, simple common sense. Pilots, lots of them, who don't do this are getting killed, this is fact. Can you produce a SINGLE pilot who has done such a low altitude save?

Tom


Tom


--
Dan, 5J


We are all saying the same things, the ONLY difference is the emphasis on priorities. We all say that glider pilots should fly coordinated and be taught spin recognition and recovery. I am only pointing out that this isn't totally working because pilots are still killing themselves with low altitude stall-spins. Personally, this happened to a friend of mine, and I witnessed a second friend very nearly kill himself doing exactly this.

Tom
  #78  
Old September 19th 19, 05:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Kawa rough landing?

On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 8:30:33 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
What you say is true, Tom, but not everyone flies fully coordinated at
all times.Â* Being able to recognize the onset of a departure from
controlled flight and taking quick, appropriate action might save a life.

I know what a spin entry feels like as well as a fully developed spin,
and I know how to recover from them.Â* And I try to fly coordinated but
some times it's useful not to, e.g., slipping to reduce altitude, or
skidding slightly in a long winged glider in the final turn to keep that
inside wing developing the same lift as the outside wing.

On 9/18/2019 11:59 PM, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 9:03:08 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Maybe this qualifies as prevention rather than recovery but I practice spins all the time - particularly spin entries (all at altitude of course).. If you know how your glider behaves when it departs, can recognize a departure quickly and act promptly I've found it's possible to recover in 1/4 turn or so. Obviously that can vary by glider type and configuration. Even 1/4 turn is too much altitude loss at 150' AGL but maybe not at 350'. A surprise departure is likely to take longer to recognize and respond to than practice but longer still without any practice.

In any case I'd rather have some practice at it than not.

Similarly, I think landing where you are rapidly bleeding energy such as on an uphill field is a good skill and you can work your way up to a reasonable simulation by landing on the flat with increasing deployment of flaps and spoilers - all the way up to full if you're comfortable. Kawa's description of his landing seemed less about obstacles than rapid bleeding of speed before and following a bounce. Hitting a hidden obstacle truly is a "Fate is the Hunter" moment and an inherent hazard of committing to field landings if they aren't cultivated. I've only landed on a steep uphill once and it definitely is something that you could do better with practice.

Here again, I'd rather have some practice at it than not. Every landing is an opportunity to practice something before you have to do it under pressure.

Andy Blackburn
9B


On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 7:45:52 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
It does absolutely no good to practice something you will never use, which is a spin recovery from low altitude. The only solution is prevention - if a particular mistake is going to kill you, you can't do it. Most low altitude spins are due to uncoordinated flight - mostly misuse of the rudder because the pilot fears the visual image he gets by a steep bank.

No amount of landout practice is going to prepare you to landing in a field with unseen obstacles, which is what apparently happened to Kawa. If you push into an area with poor landing options you should not be surprised when things turn out badly.

Tom

Andy,

When you are down low (in the pattern) practice COORDINATED flight - that is what will save your ass, not a low-altitude spin recovery. This is just plain, simple common sense. Pilots, lots of them, who don't do this are getting killed, this is fact. Can you produce a SINGLE pilot who has done such a low altitude save?

Tom


Tom


--
Dan, 5J


We are all saying the same things, the ONLY difference is the emphasis on priorities. We all say that glider pilots should fly coordinated and be taught spin recognition and recovery. I am only pointing out that this isn't totally working because pilots are still killing themselves with low altitude stall-spins. Personally, this happened to a friend of mine, and I witnessed a second friend very nearly kill himself doing exactly this.

Tom
  #79  
Old September 19th 19, 05:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom BravoMike
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Default Kawa rough landing?


Andy,

(...) Can you produce a SINGLE pilot who has done such a low altitude save?

Tom


I can, and I was watching it in person: In my ground school group there was one freshly baked pilot who, in his 6th solo flight, stalled the glider and entered a spin in downwind leg at about 200 meters. He recovered in less then 1/4 turn and landed safely after completing the pattern. And yes, practical spin recovery training WAS part of the ground school curriculum.
  #80  
Old September 19th 19, 05:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BG[_4_]
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Default Kawa rough landing?

On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 3:16:37 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dave Nadler wrote on 9/18/2019 7:43 AM:
On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 9:07:32 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
...is many motorgliders do not "plummet" or become less controllable
because the mast is up


And, many DO plummet, with reduced control authority.
It is highly dependent on what kind of glider!
Don't assume...


That's why I recommend owners try at least one airport landing with the mast up,
and engine stopped, so they know what to expect if it happens to them. The 26E,
with the gear out and mast up, reminds me of landing a Blanik.

I've never had anyone flying the usual PIK, DG, ASH, and Ventus self-launchers
mention plummeting or reduced control authority to me, but I'm sure there must be
some like that. What gliders have this plummet/control authority problem, and how
bad is the plummet (same as half spoiler, full spoiler, etc), and reduction in
control?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf
,


This is true. I fly a DG800 and with the mask out the sink rate is 4-5 knots, so my glide ratio is roughly 4-5 less. Air starts are typically on down wind to a know good field with in a 10:1 glide. If I am over uncharted territory, I will initiate the restart at a much higher altitude, even this adds extra risk if the engine won't start and I can not retract. The manual clearly states that landing with the mask out can easily lead to a hard landing, especially if any spoilers are deployed, they recommend no spoilers and extra airspeed needed to overcome the added sink rate on touch down. If you were about to land in one of the most difficult fields in your career, why would you choose to make it extra complicated with a engine mask out.. That is if you were not still being wishful it would miraculously start working. I feel this is a critical moment every MG pilot will find themselves one day. So over unlandable or very difficult terrain the plan of action to relight needs to happen at a much higher altitude that will allow retracting if things don't work. With the mask out most gliders performance degrades and requires extra airspeed to reliably reduce the extra sink rate on touch down. We all make mistakes and learn from them. A glider with a mask out in a very difficult outlanding is not good planning, especially if the mask system is working and the engine is not. Those that don't fly a MG think we have some advantage, when indeed we need to terminate our flight as a glider at a higher altitude. If you want to roll the dice and try to restart from a low altitude, if it works great which most of the time it would, but when it does not you are disadvantaged and add plenty of risk. Of my friends who fly a similar glider, one did the right thing in a difficult landing in a known good short field deep in the woods, rather than try a restart he landed. The other landing short with his mask out hanging in the trees on another day.

BG
 




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