flew an R22 today for the first time, hover and pedal turns were easy!

i went and flew an R22 today. the helicopter was parked on a trailer,
so the instructor insisted on doing the initial lift-off. 15 seconds
later i was hover-taxi-ing to the base of the tower and the video link
below is me doing a hover with pedal turns and a landing, all within
the first 3 minutes ever of flying a helicopter. i seriously doubt any
pilot could fly this helicopter so well, so soon, without training
before hand. interestingly, the R22 really is a pretty touchy heli at
the cyclic, i was surprised and expected it to be a bit "softer."

thanks to american helicopters in fresno, california for accommodating
my special request for an instructor (Dan) brave enough to let me do
everything all at once!

easy link:
http://www.learntohover.com

link to the video:
http://www.heli-chair.com/videos_pup...er_liftoff.wmv

link to american helicopters where i did my training:
http://www.renthelicopters.com

kas

Hi. Just a quick note to let you know the link to the video doesn't
work. Thanks very much.
Ed

this should work

http://www.heli-chair.com/videos_pub...er_liftoff.wmv

kas

I've been flying RC helicopters for 23 years. I'm not a big 3D pilot and
don't do the aggressive aerobatics that have become so common but I'm very
competent at what I can do, certainly within the realm of anything that
would mimic the capabilities of a full size helicopter. I'm also a fixed
wing private pilot SEL/MEL and I've got about seven hours duel instruction
in helicopters and two in gyroplanes so I do have some idea of the
challenges faced by an RC helicopter pilot trying to transition to the full
size birds.

This is just my opinion of course, but, while the performance shown in the
video is impressive, I think it's unreasonable to consider this a "typical"
performance. One of the problems faced by RC pilots when transitioning to
the full size birds is that they're flying by feel (seat of the pants) along
with visual info outside the aircraft while seated "inside" the aircraft.
The RC pilot flies by visual cues "only" from outside the aircraft. It
generally takes a while to make that transition. What the RC pilot gains
from his/her experience with the model, is an intuitive understanding of the
controls and their interactions that a non-RC pilot, whether they're a rated
(non-rotorcraft) full size pilot or not, would have.

Maybe there is some advantage to flying an RC model while seated in a chair
with controls that mimic the full size bird's layout as apposed to just
holding onto a couple of sticks, but they're still flying the model,
visually. I'm also assuming that you've got that RC model a discreet
distance from that chair because if the pilot does goof it up, he'll be at a
significant handicap getting out of the way of the model from a seated
position as apposed to if they were already on their feet. Having said
that, I'd also assume that you're using some kind of "buddy box" system and
instructor, at least for the first few tries, with a new student. Just
wondering?

I find your heli-chair intriguing and wouldn't mind trying it some time but
I can't help but wonder if, in my case at least, I wouldn't be just as well
off to apply that money to actual flight training.

Steve R.



"Heli-Chair" wrote in message
oups.com...
this should work

http://www.heli-chair.com/videos_pub...er_liftoff.wmv

kas

my opinion is that this is indeed the typical first performance of a
pilot after training with my device (it is hard to be thought of as
objective when i sell Heli-Chairs for a profit); the fixed wing pilots
will follow this recollection quite closely....

when i first started training in a full sized airplane (cessna 172), i
had to consciously force my feet to steer left and right while taxiing
along the ground. turning the control yoke had absolutely no effect on
which way the plane was moving along the pavement. after driving a car
for many years, this new usage of my feet was quite awkward and took a
short while to get accustomed to. it is the training of your muscle
groups that is my first goal with the Heli-Chair. the chair teaches
you how to use your feet, how to use BOTH arms and at the same time use
your left arm for two functions, collective and throttle. this type of
muscle group training could occur in any flight simulator or flight
emulator...computer or otherwise.

the second achievement of the Heli-Chair is what i consider to be far
and above the computer flight simulators presently on the market, even
the very expensive ones. i have chosen to package my helicopter
cockpit controls with a remotely controlled helicopter that is every
bit as responsive to the laws of physics (aerodynamics) as a full size
helicopter. the feel of the cyclic, the ground effect when hovering
over uneven surfaces, the fact that moving the cyclic requires a slight
addition of power, these are all aspects of the model helicopter that
come across fully when flying in the Heli-Chair and they are very
important to understanding how to pilot a full size helicopter.

there is no "feel" when flying a model using the Heli-Chair and to add
a tactile response should be the topic of a funding grant from SBIR or
DARPA. however, rated helicopter pilots are able to successfully fly
the model using the Heli-Chair and this tells me that it is, at some
fundamental level, at least similar to a full size helicopter in the
way it reacts (obviously no surprise since it is after all just a
smaller version of the 'real thing'). incidentally, rated airplane
pilots have a surprising amount of trouble with even the torque pedals
because they are much more sensitive than the 'rudder' pedals in an
airplane.

an important concept for me to explain here is that flying the model
with a transmitter box (thumb and fingers method) in no way compares to
flying it with the Heli-Chair controls. my first flights with a model
helicopter were exclusively with the Heli-Chair and did not include
having a safety pilot. i simply pulled the collective until it was
light on the skids and started getting the feel of the cyclic, i
dropped it back down if things weren't just right. it was difficult
to say the least. only after mastering flight with the Heli-Chair and
the necessity of training new pilots did i even need to learn how to
fly with the transmitter. i can attest with first hand knowledge that
almost no motor skills learned from the transmitter relay to the
Heli-Chair and vice versa. using thumbs with precisely spring centered
gimbals is nothing like using your arms and feet with controls that are
constantly in motion. when i want to fly a model for relaxing fun,
i'll use the transmitter because it is easier. when i'm up for a
challenge, i will use the full size controls.

the owner of a Heli-Chair can successfully use the training videos and
materials i provide to teach themselves how to hover, without crashing
and rebuilding the helicopter. there is of course the option of
finding a local R/C helicopter pilot to have as a backup, but that is a
luxury that most folks certainly won't need. you can learn everything
you need within 10 feet of the ground. i have given many people a try
at flying while serving as the safety pilot. i select before lift-off
which controls they will be using and i do the rest. if things get out
of hand, i simply take over completely and set it down, then they try
again. i always start by teaching the pedals first, then pedals and
throttle, then progress from that point. most curious pilots can get
the feel of pedals and collective in a short while. the cyclic of
course is the key to everything and takes much more practice.

i also have a video system to put myself in the cockpit of the model,
but that is beyond the scope of basic training with the Heli-Chair. it
is really fun stuff for those looking for the ultimate experience in
remotely piloted aircraft but sure not required to learn how to hover.

http://www.heli-chair.com/pilot_vision.html

my goal is to have the Heli-Chair available at more flight training
schools as an inexpensive alternative to $200+ per hour for dual
instruction. afterall, my initial motivation for this entire project
was the dream of lfying a real helicopter. some folks will want to
purchase a Heli-Chiar for themselves and some will opt to take
advantage of hourly training or leasing options. if you are interested
in this but can't afford to buy the whole thing, talk to your local
flight school and get them interested if they don't already have one.
it is a small investment that draw in LOTS of new customers.

kas

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
I feel the computer simulators offer something the Heli-Chair
doesn't.
No risk to persons or property should the helicopter crash. Don't
get

you are correct, the safety of a computer is of course incomparable to
a whirling 4 foot rotor disk. the cost though of the helicopter really
isn't that much and crashes don't have to cost very much either, if
they even occur. modern helicopter kits (without the electronics) can
be purchased, almost ready to fly, for about $300. some more and some
less. i use a training gear called the RotoPod, which i package with
the Heli-Chair. the RotoPod allows you quite a bit of flexibility with
regard to finessing the helicopter on and off of the ground without
damaging it. most of the time you'll only crash when you get too brave
for your skill level. if you are conservative (as we like pilots to
be), there is no reason to ding it up. you can dump the collective
from about 10 feet or so and be just fine. maybe we should build a 30
foot 'rotopod' for the big helicopters.

Have you thought of providing any control "feedback" (dampers or
springs to simulate control loads) on your HC?? One thing we're

i have centering springs and i have also considered a spring/dashpot
version that would more closely simulate the hydraulic types where the
cyclic has friction and tends more to stay where you put it. for now,
simple springs and the inherent friction in the mechanism serves to
provide a limited amount of "feel". to get feedback from the actual
helicopter to actually actuate the controls would be very complicated.
fun, but complicated.

An admirable goal, but a sim inside a small room or in the corner of
a
hangar doesn't require "airspace" for a flying model. The HC won't
provide any instrumentation for the "pilot" to refer to. One has to
wonder about the FAA's view of an RC helicopter flitting about the
local airport as well. We have to step very carefully around the FAA

good point...no one wants a model helicopter loose on the ramp. i
suppose there are creative solutions to this, such as flying the
helicopter in the parking lot out front - next to more inexpensive
vehicles of course. the fact that it has no instrumentation is a
slight handicap. i definitely agree that sims have that advantage. in
the case of IFR training for example, gauges are absolutely critical.
however my point of view is this: how many students even have time to
look at a gauge in their first 5 hours of training? even when i flew
the R22 my first time, i devoted my entire attention on flying and
relied on the instructor to help out with watching engine gauges and
such. obviously for my initial 0.4 hour flight this is acceptable;
over the next 1 or 2 hours of training i would suppose that flying
becomes a little more automatic and i can divert a little brain power
to watching the instruments. we did do one circuit in the pattern and
i had some extra time then to watch instruments, but in the hover...not
yet!

BTW: What's this thing cost sans helicopter/electronics? I might
want to blow the dust off the old JR50...

$2,350 assuming you have all the radio and field gear necessary to
fly your helicopter, this would cover the rest. all you would need to
do is send me your transmitter for me to add a plug to interface with
the Heli-Chair. i recommend you purchase two additional things, the
rotopod training gear for and a newer transmitter such as the futaba
7C. i recommend the latest radio systems because they have fail-safe
modes that can be programmed to shut the engine down if you experience
any interference or a battery fails in the transmitter, etc. they also
have computerized model setup memories so you can instantly change
between flying your helicopter to flying the glider or airplane you
might also have around.

thanks for the input!
kas

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net wrote in
message ...
BTW: What's this thing cost sans helicopter/electronics? I might
want to blow the dust off the old JR50...



According to his web site, www.helichair.com, (scroll down toward the bottom
of the page and click on the word "products"):

Heli-Chair unit and upgrades - $2,350.00
This includes modifying your transmitter
A flight ready Heli-Chair
Requires final assembly do to shipping limitations.
Does not include the helicopter and support equipment, shipping and crating
costs.

They also have a "turnkey" package that includes everything you need for
$3,875.00
That one includes a Futaba 7CHP radio and a Kyosho Caliber 30 helicopter.
It also includes a pilots log book and FAA training materials.

That brings up another question Kas. Is the flight time a person
accumulates on your Heli-Chair legally loggable toward a flight
certification? My understanding is that simulators have to be certified
before the time on them is considered valid as flight training and there
are, of course, limits to how much time you can log toward a flight rating
while in a simulator.

I hadn't considered the point about "muscle memory". I think I can see
where that part would offer an advantage but if I'm going to spend that kind
of money with the intent of earning a full size flight rating, I'd like that
time to count toward that flight rating. It's expensive enough as is, as
"the OTHER Kevin" can attest to.

For the record, I know it may seem that I'm attacking your product. That's
not really my intent, but I do have some concerns about it from the
standpoint of using the Heli-Chair as a valid training devise while working
toward a full size rating. Based on your response and Kevin's response, I
can see where I may be totally wrong in some of the assumptions I was making
about the usefulness of the Heli-Chair. I "am" intrigued by the Heli-Chair
and as I said before, wouldn't mind giving it a try. In fact, there's a
chance that I'll be in California this coming July (2005) and would be
interested in trying an hour of hover training. The $75 listed on your web
site seem like a reasonable number to satisfy my curiosity if I can work it
into my travel plans and you folks are available. :-)

Best of luck in your endeavors,
Steve R.

i appreciate all comments immensely. i certainly don't feel like
anyone is attacking my product or ideas. opinions and other viewpoints
are critical to any intelligent discussion and help me to define the
product.

1) the time logged in a Heli-Chair is NOT time you can log in your
logbook, and i would like to eventually change that (a huge project!).
i would think at best it could count as 5 hours or so. think about it
this way: why spend hundreds of dollars per hour learning how to use
your feet or how to finesse the cyclic when you can be learning
autorotations instead? i think 'most' students spend far in excess of
the minimum 40 hours (30 if already an airplane pilot) in obtaining
their rating. in that sense, actually logging the time really isn't
that important. a student spending 60 hours to obtain a private
rotorcraft rating is not uncommon. those 20 extra hours you spend
learning at around 200 an hour really add up (on the good side they
count towards insurance requirements). if you can go to your first
lesson armed with the muscle memory necessary to hover immediately,
you'll be very likely to finish the rating in the absolute minimum
amount of time.

2) the upfront cost of the Heli-Chair is quite high, but again there
are other considerations. for one, i would like to deploy these at
flight schools as a training tool, where the cost is not on the
shoulders of a single student. also, the Heli-Chair is really quite
tough and has a great resale value (in my opinion); when you are done
with it, get a friend to buy it and recover a portion of your
investment. i am doing my best to come up with a creative and safe way
for me to lease these to people on a buy-back program so that when
done, i can let someone else have a go at it.


kas

"Heli-Chair" wrote in message
oups.com...
i went and flew an R22 today. the helicopter was parked on a trailer,
so the instructor insisted on doing the initial lift-off. 15 seconds
later i was hover-taxi-ing to the base of the tower and the video link
below is me doing a hover with pedal turns and a landing, all within
the first 3 minutes ever of flying a helicopter. i seriously doubt any
pilot could fly this helicopter so well, so soon, without training
before hand.

Well, that looks about the same as I managed on my first flight. Maybe a
tad smoother, but only just. And my only previous experience has been with
R/C helis and PC simulators. After handing over the controls to me one by
one, after about 3 or 4 minutes I was hovering like that with the instructor
off the controls (but ready to pounce!) I think you should encourage a
(conventional control) R/C only friend to go do a trial lesson. You might be
surprised at how well they do.

The trouble with RC helicopters, especially well set-up ones, is that
there's very little cross-effect from the controls. Revolution mixing and
tail gyros take so much out of the pilot's hands, and feedback flybars
stabilise the cyclic to the point where on a calm day I've had a Raptor 60
hover motionless with my fingers off the cyclic for about 30 seconds.

I like the idea of the heli-chair, but I would never use it for RC training.
In fact no club I know of would likely allow an expert, let alone a student
sit there trapped waiting to be decapitated by an out of control model.
(Servo failures and RF interference are to be feared as much as
inexperience.) I think it would have more value attached to a PC sim.
Isn't MS FlightSim certified by the CAA for use under supervision these
days? In fact I've been looking at doing something similar myself.

There's no doubt in my mind that building, flying and maintaing R/C
helicopters gives someone a headstart in understanding the fundamentals of
helicopter flight, and the added control familiarity of the heli-chair would
be another bonus. With all due respect, I'm just not sure that connecting
the two is the best, or safest idea. Perhaps you could build a version with
a USB interface and bundle it with FlightSim?
(Have a look at
http://www.simw.com/index.cfm?fuseac...details&pid=64 )

Si

simon, thanks for your inputs. these are my thoughts on the points you
have mentioned:

1) the heli-chair can currently be used to interface with microsoft
flight sim, x-plane or other flight sim software on the market by means
of a USB cable.

2) a computer flight sim on the PC is not as 'real' as a real
helicopter. in my humble opinion, current PC flight sim technology is
woefully inadequate at modeling the physics of helicopter flight. some
of the more developed sims with motion and wrap around screens are
getting closer but the fact is that a computer program must always make
certain assumptions in order to write the equations modeling the
aircraft and atmosphere. this is why i call the heli-chair an
"emulator" rather than a "simulator." it is doing everything that a
real helicopter will do.

3) sitting in a chair or stading up, it really makes no difference if a
model helicopter is headed your way because you don't know where it
will end up and it moves faster than you can run. duck behind the
chair for added protection if necessary.

4) if you have successfully learned to fly a real helicopter by
learning first with your thumbs and fingers, in my opinion you are an
exception and you have done something that most people wouldn't be able
to do. i just don't think the average person can learn how to
coordinate anti-torque pedals, throttle, collective and cyclic without
actually having the controls to manipulate. the movements of the
cyclic are similar when flying with the transmitter as compared to the
real thing, but in my opinion are not 'substantially' similar as i
would call the comparison between Heli-Chair and real helicopter. as
mentioned earlier in the thread, the difference between a precision,
spring centered gimbal (on your transmitter box) and a relatively
imprecise cyclic stick are indeed significant.

5) the robinson R22 is a bit more stable in comparison to flying the
heli-chair, and not vice versa. the sensitivity of the model simply by
virtue of its size, weight and rotor disk loading makes it inherently
more responsive to cyclic inputs.

6) i do not recommend using any of the mixing functions of the radio or
features such as a heading hold gyro or governor to assist in flying
the helicopter. they can be helpful for some aspects of initial
learning but it is critical to turn all that stuff off and do it on
your own.

kas